UK plc Dividends

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Re: UK plc Dividends

Postby macliam » Fri Oct 27, 2017 2:24 pm

pabenny wrote:
macliam wrote:But you are [getting into politics of envy]..... you are complaining that somebody may be getting something that you might not.


Leaving aside the assumptions you seem to have made about my demographic profile, the point remains that today's retired are well served (as you yourself acknowledge.

As I understand it, best predictor of poverty in old age is poverty before retirement age. Or put differently, people who are comfortably off while in work don't suddenly become poor when they reach pension age. Yet we still extend generous financial privileges to all retired people that we don't give to poor working age people. To be clear, I'm referring to higher tax allowances, free prescriptions, concessionary admission charges, winter fuel, etc, rather than the state retirement pension.

On prescriptions specifically - only the very poorest working age person receives free prescriptions (save for certain medical exemptions), whereas every pensioner pays nothing. This is nothing to do with need and nothing to do with ability to pay.

No assumptions, you said " I know that many of the privileges granted to today's retired will have evaporated by the time I retire on my (comparatively) meagre defined contribution pension" Therefore i conclude you are not yet at retirement age and are complaining about benefits "enjoyed" by current pensioners that may not be available to you.

When considering the "fairness" of such things, maybe you should also remember that many of the current pensioners paid taxes, etc. which were used to support the previous generations who had not paid into any welfare state (because it did not exist). They didn't complain, because it was seen as progress - and the fact that the state chose to use the money collected as part of the current account and defer future liabilities was not their decision. The state has always paid in arrears.

Again you mention tax concessions - the only concessions are for those well over state retirement age, as are free TV licenses - I'd be interested to know of any others. The "benefits" you mention fall into the same camp as other global benefits ... and with the same issues - what is the cost of global provision over the cost of administering any system of means-testing and rectifying the resultant anomalies? I'm not saying it's fair - but why spread the pain for no advantage?

Oh, and in case you have a query on the demographics, I am not at state retirement age, won't be for several years and receive none of the benefits you refer to, apart from free prescriptions (which I would get anyway due to my medical condition).
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Re: UK plc Dividends

Postby 1960mackem » Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:02 pm

macliam wrote:
pabenny wrote:
macliam wrote:But you are [getting into politics of envy]..... you are complaining that somebody may be getting something that you might not.


Leaving aside the assumptions you seem to have made about my demographic profile, the point remains that today's retired are well served (as you yourself acknowledge.

As I understand it, best predictor of poverty in old age is poverty before retirement age. Or put differently, people who are comfortably off while in work don't suddenly become poor when they reach pension age. Yet we still extend generous financial privileges to all retired people that we don't give to poor working age people. To be clear, I'm referring to higher tax allowances, free prescriptions, concessionary admission charges, winter fuel, etc, rather than the state retirement pension.

On prescriptions specifically - only the very poorest working age person receives free prescriptions (save for certain medical exemptions), whereas every pensioner pays nothing. This is nothing to do with need and nothing to do with ability to pay.



somebody's feeling a bit better :o
No assumptions, you said " I know that many of the privileges granted to today's retired will have evaporated by the time I retire on my (comparatively) meagre defined contribution pension" Therefore i conclude you are not yet at retirement age and are complaining about benefits "enjoyed" by current pensioners that may not be available to you.

When considering the "fairness" of such things, maybe you should also remember that many of the current pensioners paid taxes, etc. which were used to support the previous generations who had not paid into any welfare state (because it did not exist). They didn't complain, because it was seen as progress - and the fact that the state chose to use the money collected as part of the current account and defer future liabilities was not their decision. The state has always paid in arrears.

Again you mention tax concessions - the only concessions are for those well over state retirement age, as are free TV licenses - I'd be interested to know of any others. The "benefits" you mention fall into the same camp as other global benefits ... and with the same issues - what is the cost of global provision over the cost of administering any system of means-testing and rectifying the resultant anomalies? I'm not saying it's fair - but why spread the pain for no advantage?

Oh, and in case you have a query on the demographics, I am not at state retirement age, won't be for several years and receive none of the benefits you refer to, apart from free prescriptions (which I would get anyway due to my medical condition).



somebody's feeling a bit better :o

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Re: UK plc Dividends

Postby planteria » Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:34 pm

William Joseph wrote:Interesting, my understanding is you cannot get a NI number unless you have a job offer. At least that used to be the case when my partner who is from Malaysia applied for one. He was a student at the time.


yes, to apply for a Visa you have to go through that system. but we are in the EU. the effects are enormous: housing, education, healthcare. to give an example, there is a whole new estate that has been allocated to somali families near to us. yes, in some rural areas there may appear to be very little effect from immigration, but the whole nation is paying for it, along with individual councils. what is right/wrong is another discussion, but the effects are enormous - regardless of impression/media agenda.

so along with a slice of the UK plc Dividend pie, some are also benefiting from the public purse paying rents for newly arrived families. maybe that requires a thread of it's own though :mrgreen:.

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Re: UK plc Dividends

Postby William Joseph » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:21 pm

planteria wrote:
William Joseph wrote:Interesting, my understanding is you cannot get a NI number unless you have a job offer. At least that used to be the case when my partner who is from Malaysia applied for one. He was a student at the time.


yes, to apply for a Visa you have to go through that system. but we are in the EU. the effects are enormous: housing, education, healthcare. to give an example, there is a whole new estate that has been allocated to somali families near to us. yes, in some rural areas there may appear to be very little effect from immigration, but the whole nation is paying for it, along with individual councils. what is right/wrong is another discussion, but the effects are enormous - regardless of impression/media agenda.

so along with a slice of the UK plc Dividend pie, some are also benefiting from the public purse paying rents for newly arrived families. maybe that requires a thread of it's own though :mrgreen:.
Wow where did that come from? Interesting that you should bring this up in a topic that has nothing to do with immigration or visas. It shows your particular slant for sure.
yes, to apply for a Visa you have to go through that system.
Not sure where you got that from Visas and NI numbers are totally unconnected. For a start, in many countries you have to apply for a visa before you even leave the country you are coming from. Whereas you cannot even apply for a NI number until you are in the country, have a right to work and have a job offer.
there is a whole new estate that has been allocated to somali families near to us
I doubt the truth of that for a start the estate would not have been empty in the first place to allow that to happen.

Wikipedia has an interesting article about Somalian immigration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somalis_i ... ed_Kingdom
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Re: UK plc Dividends

Postby planteria » Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:40 am

you're a bit mixed up there.. some of what you say i have brought up are actually replies :mrgreen:
and you can doubt it if you want, but it'll still be true :lol: . as it happens it is a brand new estate. you can ask for more information from people who know more, or you can suggest that they are telling lies if you like, but that says more about your 'slant' than mine :angel:

there was a great, simple FTSE100 yields site around.. anyone know that one i'm thinking of, which had a .nl domain?

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Re: UK plc Dividends

Postby blythburgh » Sun Oct 29, 2017 7:31 am

And you all still seem to miss the point that millions of pensioners only get the state pension and have no private pension. Every winter some of them will die from hypothermia because they are afraid to use too much heating.

Not all pensioners are fatcats living in a property they can get an lump sum from

But one thing the anti pensioner brigade could use is without them we would not have had Brexit. The majority of those in work or studying voted Remain but the majority of pensioners,the group most likely to vote, voted Leave.

Now that is a stick to beat them with especially as a poll showed a majority of those who voted to leave thought if it meant cutting immigration was worth it even if it meant people lost their jobs. A shocking 33% of those interviewed thought Brexit would be worth it even if a relative of theirs lost their job.
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Re: UK plc Dividends

Postby planteria » Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:42 am

i'm certainly not part of "you all".. and the surveys you mention :lol:
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Re: UK plc Dividends

Postby blythburgh » Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:52 am

planteria wrote:i'm certainly not part of "you all".. and the surveys you mention :lol:

I voted remain and cheer when I hear good news about jobs and feel like weeping when I hear about jobs lost. So if I had taken part in the survey I would not have been in the "selfish" pensioners group
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Re: UK plc Dividends

Postby blythburgh » Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:19 am

Another way in which all pensioners lose out is if they become disabled.

If you are in receipt of a disablity payment DLA or now PIP you keep it when you reach pension age.

If you become so disabled you would qualify for PIP payments after you reach state pension age you cannot apply for it. You have to apply for attendance allowance which has a far higher level of disability before you can qualify.

Then again there is the problem of filling in the form. Page after page of questions which are often wrongly answered. A friend fills in the form for people who have just left hospital on behalf of the Red Cross. He says it is like pulling teeth to get the truth out of them. e.g "Can you dress yourself?" "Oh yes, it takes me about an hour or more to get washed and dressed every morning but I can do it." But that box should be ticked "no". How many people fill in the forms themselves or get family to do it for them and miss out on benefits they should be receiving I wonder. And these will probably be the pensioners who have no private pension and are struggling to buy food as well as heating their homes.
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