Parliamentary Sovereignty

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Parliamentary Sovereignty

Postby Chadwick » Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:05 pm

The Brexit Bill has just been given Royal Assent.

But I'm still left wondering what the hell just happened a couple of days ago?

One of the things Leavers voted for was for our parliament to take decisions about our future, instead of Brussels (leave it, it's not worth arguing over that lie now).

So, at the first opportunity, parliament is denied the opportunity to take any such decisions. It's left to one woman to raise the issue in court and when our own judges (not EU judges) say that our parliament should make decisions about our country, those judges are described as 'enemies of the state'.

Anyway, they were right - parliament is the sovereign body in our version of democracy.

Fast forward to the past couple of weeks, and the issue again arises. Should parliament pull the trigger, or can it be bypassed and just Theresa May do it? The House of Commons says..... nothing. It's left to the House of Lords to point out that if parliament - in particular the Commons - is to be the sovereign body, then it should have the ability to take the meaningful decisions.

And the Commons says.... nah, don't worry mate, we're not interested in taking any meaningful decisions.


Am I reading this right? We voted for our elected MPs to be in charge of our country and they say, no, we'd prefer to leave it in the hands of an unelected body in Downing Street.

And this is OK?

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Re: Parliamentary Sovereignty

Postby macliam » Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:28 pm

Ah, but you,ve been trumped (pun intended) by "the will of the people" :roll:
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Re: Parliamentary Sovereignty

Postby Sarah » Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:26 pm

Or at least a tiny majority of the people that could be bothered to express an opinion via the ballot box. It's no use trying to make any sense of it; that's just not possible. See also: Scottish Indyref2.

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Re: Parliamentary Sovereignty

Postby Chadwick » Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:35 pm

Sarah wrote:Or at least a tiny majority of the people that could be bothered to express an opinion via the ballot box. It's no use trying to make any sense of it; that's just not possible. See also: Scottish Indyref2.


I've long given up trying to make sense of the actual referendum result.

I find it more worrying that a few million votes can constitute the inviolable will of the people on such an important issue, when a similar number of votes can be disregarded on less important matters. The rule of parliament is apparently being undermined, not least by parliament itself.

After all that talk about leaving the EU dictatorship, we seem determined to replace it with a British (possibly just English) version. Is that what Leave voters wanted?

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Re: Parliamentary Sovereignty

Postby macliam » Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:24 pm

Chadwick wrote:
Sarah wrote:Or at least a tiny majority of the people that could be bothered to express an opinion via the ballot box. It's no use trying to make any sense of it; that's just not possible. See also: Scottish Indyref2.


I've long given up trying to make sense of the actual referendum result.

I find it more worrying that a few million votes can constitute the inviolable will of the people on such an important issue, when a similar number of votes can be disregarded on less important matters. The rule of parliament is apparently being undermined, not least by parliament itself.

After all that talk about leaving the EU dictatorship, we seem determined to replace it with a British (possibly just English) version. Is that what Leave voters wanted?

I think I've bemoaned the abrogation of UK parliamentary supremacy before ..... the problem is that for all the talk of "rights", etc. very, very few people actually know (or care) how the UK system of representative democracy is supposed to work. I am particularly disappointed by the actions of the Labour party in this regard, where MPs representing constituencies that voted against Brexit were whipped to support it, in order that the party could not be seen to go against "the will of the people". :problem:

The whole idea of binding referendums is contary to the UK system.If you want to make a huge constitutional change it should be part of a manifesto taken to national public vote to elect representatives who reflect the will of the constituency, not a discrete single-issue vote that can be manipulated and is subject to outside influence. If not, why not emulate Switzerland and govern by referendum for any major decisions (even down to local road construction)? This mongrelization of politics has led to the current situation - where he who shouts loudest gets most. Of course, no party nowadays actually has the cojones to make a stand on any issue, because it might not be "popular". :shifty:
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Re: Parliamentary Sovereignty

Postby Chadwick » Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:41 pm

macliam wrote:Of course, no party nowadays actually has the cojones to make a stand on any issue, because it might not be "popular". :shifty:

Perhaps that's at the heart of the problem. Most MPs, when they had a free vote (the referendum) voted to Remain. Now they've found that a tiny majority of the public thinks the other way, they've changed their minds.

Their decision is not based on the facts of whether leaving or remaining is the best thing for the UK. It is based on them wanting to keep their noses in the Westminster trough at any cost (including, cutting said noses off, if you'll forgive me mixing my metaphors).

David Davies (Minister for Brexit) has not assessed the implications of exit negotiations failing. Has the government or parliament assessed anything to help make a decision? Or have they just blindly followed the whim of the people? The Commons has just backed away from having to take any responsibility for the decision.

If there were a second Brexit referendum, and it was 51/49 for Remain, would the government do a U-turn because it's the will of the people?

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Re: Parliamentary Sovereignty

Postby macliam » Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:59 pm

Chadwick wrote:If there were a second Brexit referendum, and it was 51/49 for Remain, would the government do a U-turn because it's the will of the people?

I think you know the answer..... :eh:

But once article 50 is invoked it would be meaningless anyway. :roll:
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Re: Parliamentary Sovereignty

Postby blythburgh » Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:18 am

"The will of the people" included a load of OAP's who are not affected by the risk to jobs of leaving.

Unlike the Scottish referendum it did not include the 16/17 year old soon to be in the jobs market who are most affected by the result.

Nor did it include many British citizens who have lived in other EU countries for over 15 years. Despite the promise they would have the right to vote in this countries elections.

I am one of the 48% and will fight to get the best Brexit I can and fight John Major's "bastards" who want a hard Brexit and to hell with the jobs we lose.
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