anti-Zionism=anti-semitism?

Discussion about miscellaneous topics not covered by other forums

anti-Zionism=anti-semitism?

Postby macliam » Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:32 am

Is it just me? I really don't understand all the fuss over Ken Livingstone's comments - and I'm concerned at the blurring of the difference between anti-Zionism and anti-semitism, the denial of history and the inordinate influence of a small number of people.

It's well known that Ken Livingstone is a bit of a motor-mouth and has had a love/hate relationship with the Labour party for many years, but much of the current row is based on what he is reported to have said, not what he actually said.

What he said was "Let’s remember when Hitler won his election in 1932, his policy then was that Jews should be moved to Israel. He was supporting Zionism – this before he went mad and ended up killing six million Jews."

Fact: the Haavara Agreement (Transfer Agreement) of August 1933 was a formal contract signed between the Reich Ministry of Economics and the Zionistische Vereinigung für Deutschland (Zionist Federation of Germany) and the Anglo-Palestine Bank (then under the directive of the Jewish Agency for Palestine) to transfer funds from the sale of assets to Jews who moved to Palestine. This was in both their interests - for the Nazis, it encouraged jews to relocate from Germany and boosted German exports, for the Zionists, it helped Jews move out of Germany and also increased the Jewish population in Palestine. To say that this meant the Nazis (and by extension Hitler) were "supporting Zionism" might be a stretch, but it is a matter of argument, not a denial of the holocaust or even anti-Zionist, let alone anti-semitic. The Zionists had good reason to "sup with the Devil" and this was all before the holocaust started. In fact, Livingstone said "before he (Hitler) went mad and ended up killing six million Jews", so, no holocaust denial there.

Then there's the blurring of anti-Zionist and anti-semitic. This suggests that any criticism of the State of Israel or its founders is a slur against the Jewish people as a whole (or worse). This is not only untrue, but it is a dangerous tactic, much used by Zionists to make them "untouchable" - the late Gerald Kaufman strove against this throughout his career and was heavily criticised as a "self-hating Jew" by some people for doing so.

Finally, there's the fact that this spat is all over the press and has MPs coming out and demanding that Livingstone is expelled from the party and others either having a go at an old opponent or bending to the pressure of their supporters. So the thought police are alive and well..........

I'm no supporter of Israel and I defy anyone to claim I am anti-semitic - but I am a student of history and I would suggest that one of the excuses made for the anti-semitic policies of the Nazis was the inordinate influence that some rich Jews had in post-WW1 Germany ..... so I find this row very worrying.
Last edited by macliam on Wed Apr 05, 2017 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just because I'm paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not out to get me

Thanked by: pabennyFuggsyScrabble8171960mackem
macliam
 
Posts: 6266
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:26 am
Location: By the Deben, Suffolk
Has thanked: 1286 times
Been thanked: 5457 times
Sharing: *

Re: anti-zionism=anti-semitism?

Postby 1960mackem » Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:39 am

Very well stated Sir - I would class my ideals as anti-zionistic, the way that the palestinians are being treated on the west bank at the moment is disgraceful - but there is no way I'd class myself as anti-Semitic

Thanked by: blythburgh
1960mackem
 
Posts: 2327
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 1:53 am
Has thanked: 1255 times
Been thanked: 1794 times

Re: anti-Zionism=anti-semitism?

Postby Sarah » Wed Apr 05, 2017 12:43 pm

I'm not sure there's so much dispute over facts, even if Ken Livingstone's point was easily misunderstood; the case against him seems to be at least as much that his comments were somewhat unnecessary, unsympathetic and unhelpful to the Labour Party at that sensitive time. His appearance on Newsnight a couple of days ago appeared to give a pretty fair hearing to both sides.

Thanked by: blythburgh
Sarah
 
Posts: 2186
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 9:01 am
Has thanked: 185 times
Been thanked: 1468 times

Re: anti-Zionism=anti-semitism?

Postby macliam » Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:20 pm

Sarah wrote:I'm not sure there's so much dispute over facts, even if Ken Livingstone's point was easily misunderstood; the case against him seems to be at least as much that his comments were somewhat unnecessary, unsympathetic and unhelpful to the Labour Party at that sensitive time. His appearance on Newsnight a couple of days ago appeared to give a pretty fair hearing to both sides.

There's one heck of a campaign against him if it was just that his comments were "unnecessary, unsympathetic and unhelpful to the Labour Party at that sensitive time". Has the Labour party become the new Church, where one must do as one is told or risk being excommunicated and branded a heretic?

To me, it seems there are people on one side with an axe to grind, either personal or political, and on the other side a bunch of apparatchiks too scared of their own shadow to express any opinion which might be criticised. This is the problem with the Labour party today - no big ideas, avoidance of controversy and too much focus on the headlines. I despair.

I've often disagreed with Ken Livingstone, but I do not believe he is anything but a member of the broad church of the Labour party, with his own ideas, but generally focused on improving the lives of ordinary people. Even in his most controversial activities, he was generally just ahead of the wave - " no prophet is accepted in his own country"
Just because I'm paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not out to get me

Thanked by: blythburgh
macliam
 
Posts: 6266
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:26 am
Location: By the Deben, Suffolk
Has thanked: 1286 times
Been thanked: 5457 times
Sharing: *

Re: anti-Zionism=anti-semitism?

Postby dorisifa » Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:47 pm

I have a soft spot for Ken, but for some unfathomable reason he does struggle to express opinions on Israel without mentioning Hitler or the Nazis.
But apart from that Mrs Lincoln how was the play?

Thanked by: blythburgh
dorisifa
 
Posts: 683
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:23 pm
Has thanked: 289 times
Been thanked: 770 times

Re: anti-Zionism=anti-semitism?

Postby Sarah » Wed Apr 05, 2017 6:29 pm

I see he's now in further trouble for his media appearances after the verdict was announced (which was actually only yesterday, despite how long days now feel)!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39499640

Thanked by: blythburgh
Sarah
 
Posts: 2186
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 9:01 am
Has thanked: 185 times
Been thanked: 1468 times

Re: anti-Zionism=anti-semitism?

Postby macliam » Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:33 pm

Yep, bored by the pussyfooters - and that includes Corbyn, who should know better.

I agree with the Jewish Labour MPs who supported Ken Livingstone.

Labour will go nowhere until it grows a pair.........
Just because I'm paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not out to get me

Thanked by: blythburgh
macliam
 
Posts: 6266
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:26 am
Location: By the Deben, Suffolk
Has thanked: 1286 times
Been thanked: 5457 times
Sharing: *

Re: anti-Zionism=anti-semitism?

Postby blythburgh » Thu Apr 06, 2017 6:40 am

macliam wrote:Yep, bored by the pussyfooters - and that includes Corbyn, who should know better.

I agree with the Jewish Labour MPs who supported Ken Livingstone.

Labour will go nowhere until it grows a pair.........


A pear??? What has fruit got to do with this?
Keep smiling because the light at the end of someone's tunnel may be you, Ron Cheneler
blythburgh
 
Posts: 11414
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2010 6:14 pm
Location: The Far East
Has thanked: 27051 times
Been thanked: 5411 times

Re: anti-Zionism=anti-semitism?

Postby Sarah » Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:06 am

blythburgh wrote:A pear??? What has fruit got to do with this?


Jam?
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/c ... 22a4d34708

Thanked by: blythburgh
Sarah
 
Posts: 2186
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 9:01 am
Has thanked: 185 times
Been thanked: 1468 times

Re: anti-Zionism=anti-semitism?

Postby macliam » Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:46 pm

Well, in Portugal they call the pair I'm talking about "Tomatoes" - and they're famous for their tomato jam ...... so you might both be right. ;)

Oh, and I listened to an "interesting" interview on "Today" with Rhea Wolfson, who replaced Ken Livigstone on the NEC.

All very touchy feely and basically saying it didn't matter if what he said was true, he was guilty of upsetting people who didn't like to hear criticism of Zionism - and if he didn't show "some contrition", he should be expelled from the Party.

Of course, although Livingstone supported Corbyn, he is not allied to Momentum ..... and this has nothing to do with the fact that the reasonable, caring Ms.Wolfson is the former president of Oxford University’s Jewish and Israel societies, and an ex-chair of the Zionist Youth Council.

So, neutral then.......
Just because I'm paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not out to get me

Thanked by: blythburgh
macliam
 
Posts: 6266
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:26 am
Location: By the Deben, Suffolk
Has thanked: 1286 times
Been thanked: 5457 times
Sharing: *

Next

Return to Other stuff

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: stockportcounty and 0 guests