UKIP to become the BNP?

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UKIP to become the BNP?

Postby macliam » Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:48 am

So Anne Marie Waters has been accepted as a candidate for the UKIP leadership, despite being on record for her anti-Islam views. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40902796
The fact that the founder of Sharia-watch is backed by Tommy Robinson (ex-EDL leader) is not surprising .... the fact she's an ex-Labour activist moreso (for me, anyway).

Ms Waters has already stated on TV that she "did not like" Islam. No just extreme Islam, or Islamism, but all Islam "The religion, the scriptures and how it's practiced in most of the world I find quite frankly abhorrent." Now this is interesting and I'd like to see what would happen were she to substitute Judaism for Islam in that context. Is it acceptable for anyone in the public eye to express such views? I do't believe we should censor them, but that she should get sufficient traction to stand for party leadership is worrying.

However, Muslims, it appears, are different in her eyes, "The thing is a lot of people get confused on Islam and all Muslims," she said. "A lot of people think Islam equals all Muslims. It does not". Given that a Muslim is, by definition, a follower of Islam, I'd love to hear her explain that.....

Or maybe it's the anti-Islamic version of "Some of my best friends are Jewish"..... :eh:
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Re: UKIP to become the BNP?

Postby blythburgh » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:22 am

The last leader of UKIP, Paul Nutter definitely distanced himself from her and her views. Pity the rest of UKIP top brass have not done the same.

I can, and at times do, critise Jews, members of Islam/Musllins/Christians. DOes not mean that all Jews, Muslims or Christians are bad or hold abhorrant views. And that is the difference between us.

Ex Labour - maybe they kicked her out or she jumped before she was pushed.
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Re: UKIP to become the BNP?

Postby blythburgh » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:30 am

Will show how racist UKIP members are when we see the results
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Re: UKIP to become the BNP?

Postby pabenny » Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:07 pm

I think we've done this one before. UKIP was always a coalition of racists and oddballs with a desire to leave the EU providing a rallying point. With that now considered to be a done deal, there's nothing to hold them together and the other beliefs of their activists/supporters are becoming visible.

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Re: UKIP to become the BNP?

Postby Derbiean » Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:18 pm

Become? They already are.

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Re: UKIP to become the BNP?

Postby parchedpeas » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:58 pm

Such a 'so what' story. UKIP are finished, the major parties have scrambled around and re-absorbed their disaffected members who left to vote for Farage. Unfortunately, we're all worse off without UKIP because we've got centrist parties pandering to the fringes, instead of a fringe party who would always have struggled to get elected because their beliefs were not concentrated in any one are.

The same thing has happened in the US. The centrists have caved in and run for the hills, instead of standing and fighting their ground which is crazy, because the very definition of centrist means that MOST people are in line with them.

I'd rather a strong UKIP as a great but toothless lobbying group than this horrid collapse of normally sane parties who have panicked and taken the country down in their panic.

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Re: UKIP to become the BNP?

Postby Chadwick » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:36 am

macliam wrote:However, Muslims, it appears, are different in her eyes, "The thing is a lot of people get confused on Islam and all Muslims," she said. "A lot of people think Islam equals all Muslims. It does not". Given that a Muslim is, by definition, a follower of Islam, I'd love to hear her explain that.....

[devil's advocate]
I think it is possible to disagree with (or even dislike) a system, set of rules, culture, politics, religion etc, but still find the individuals who follow it to be perfectly normal, pleasant, friends. Indeed, I would argue that this is the ideal scenario - whereby you can talk about differences, rather than, say, driving a car into them.

There's a line somewhere obviously. There may be other aspects of the individuals personality that you find distasteful and unpleasant, or maybe their fervent promotion of some (to you) unpleasant aspect of their beliefs/culture/rules makes you want to distance yourself from that individual. So be it.

And there's a middle ground where you have a group of similarly minded people, and the group dynamic takes over. In this case, it is possible to have a view on the actions and beliefs of the group that is separate from your view of the individuals when they are outside of the group, and also separate from your view of the beliefs/rules/whatever that defines them.

It all depends on your desire to separate these elements, and also their desire to separate them. For many political groups, it makes sense to play down the individual and just promote the group, or the ethos. Conversely if you're a figurehead, you might benefit from people identifying with you as an individual, rather than part of a group. The Archbishop of Canterbury, on the other hand, gets his authority by being a main representative of a religion, so for him it is important to be closely linked to that religion.

So, in defence of Anne Marie Waters, I think you can separate out Islam, Muslims and (stereotype alert!) Mohammed from the corner shop. The difficulties arise when you apply your views of one element to the other elements (eg. all Muslims are called Mohammed and run corner shops, or killing people "in the name of Allah")

[/devil's advocate]


That said, I think UKIP at it's core was an anti European Union protest group. It has attracted a fringe of more racist members who agreed with the anti-EU agenda, but brought other views as well. UKIP was the most prominent and socially acceptable anti-EU movement, so it has attracted those who agreed with the anti-EU view, but also agreed to some extent with the BNP and EDL, but didn't want to be associated with their more extreme methods. As pabenny says, now the rallying point has gone, the racist element are increasingly coming to the fore as "anti-EU" morphs into "anti-European" and "anti-foreigner".

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Re: UKIP to become the BNP?

Postby kevinchess1 » Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:44 pm

Politically incorrect since 69

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Re: UKIP to become the BNP?

Postby blythburgh » Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:59 am

The most racist candidate came second so will the new leader find his hands ties to an extent. Remember a previous leader quit as she was unable to do what she wanted to do
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Re: UKIP to become the BNP?

Postby gle1975 » Sat Sep 30, 2017 12:59 pm

UKIP have elected Harry Enfield as leader instead.

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