Back from the Euro Zone

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Re: Back from the Euro Zone

Postby macliam » Wed May 09, 2018 3:39 pm

Boro Boy wrote:
blythburgh wrote:Whatever we say here UKIP members and many readers of the press like The Mail, Express and Sun have made up their minds and nothing will make them see that what they "know" to be a fact is not acturally true.


That's very patronising! Had you ever thought that the minority (the remainers) could be wrong? :think:

No. I agree that the tone is patronising, but there is some truth in it, so No, I don't think the remainers were wrong.

But everything I've heard used as a "reason" for Brexit is largely incorrect:

- Brexit will stop unwelcome immigration. No it won't, or not any more than the appropriate actions by HM Government would have done whilst IN the EU (e.g. the enforcement of the 3-month registration process and consequent need to prove no burden on the state).
- Brexit will save the UK millions of pounds a week. No, it won't , because the drop in trade and the costs of maintaining borders, tariffs, etc. will eat that. Plus the UK will still need to contribute to any supra-national organizations of which it is a part.
- Brexit will give control back to parliament. Will it? Will it really? I think not, judging by the situation thus far.
- Brexit will restore the UK's sovereignty. Sovereignty was never lost, it was SHARED - and whilst the UK belongs to any supra-national bodies (UN, NATO, even the beloved WTO) that will continue to be the case.
- Brexit will get rid of EU laws and red-tape. No it won't - it's all supposedly being copied into UK law.
- Brexit will stop Brussels imposing legislation. Cats are Fish again. Brussels never did "impose" legislation because all laws are passed through the EU parliament and then via the nation-state's own legislature.
- Brexit will allow the UK to trade with other countries on better terms In what world would a nation of 60m get better terms than a bloc of 500m? In what world will China and the USA do special favours for the UK?

But people voted with their hearts, not their heads - or with heads full of disinformation. Do you REALLY think Moggy and Boris are on the side of the common man?

We won't even start on the things it puts at risk...........
Just because I'm paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not out to get me

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Re: Back from the Euro Zone

Postby Constantine » Wed May 09, 2018 4:02 pm

pabenny wrote:....
Admit that there is no evidence that UK bureaucracy would become like Italy as a result of our continuing membership of the EU
- or -
Provide some evidence to support that assertion.


All you need is another directive.

Note the recent media stories on 'mortgage prisoners'. A problem which has arisen largely due to the need to meet the requirements of the EU mortgage directive. Would not that be an example of EU bureaucracy being imported into the UK?

Martyn Lewis doesn't like it.
https://blog.moneysavingexpert.com/2015 ... 1525871119

P.S. I voted remain. But I'm not so dense that I ignore reality.

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Re: Back from the Euro Zone

Postby Boro Boy » Wed May 09, 2018 4:52 pm

Constantine wrote:
pabenny wrote:....
Admit that there is no evidence that UK bureaucracy would become like Italy as a result of our continuing membership of the EU
- or -
Provide some evidence to support that assertion.


All you need is another directive.

Note the recent media stories on 'mortgage prisoners'. A problem which has arisen largely due to the need to meet the requirements of the EU mortgage directive. Would not that be an example of EU bureaucracy being imported into the UK?

Martyn Lewis doesn't like it.
https://blog.moneysavingexpert.com/2015 ... 1525871119

P.S. I voted remain. But I'm not so dense that I ignore reality.


Further example: 25th May GDPR introduced - yet another EU directive "hammer to crack a nut" approach that ties up smaller businesses with yet more EU bureaucracy... :thumbdown:
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Re: Back from the Euro Zone

Postby pabenny » Wed May 09, 2018 4:58 pm

The claim was (again) that EU membership will result in UK bureaucracy taking on the character of Italian bureaucracy

Both of the examples quoted are changes in regulation to deal with a changing world and are nothing to do with whether we become like Italy.
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Re: Back from the Euro Zone

Postby Chadwick » Wed May 09, 2018 5:06 pm

Constantine wrote:
pabenny wrote:....
Admit that there is no evidence that UK bureaucracy would become like Italy as a result of our continuing membership of the EU
- or -
Provide some evidence to support that assertion.


All you need is another directive.

Note the recent media stories on 'mortgage prisoners'. A problem which has arisen largely due to the need to meet the requirements of the EU mortgage directive. Would not that be an example of EU bureaucracy being imported into the UK?

Martyn Lewis doesn't like it.
https://blog.moneysavingexpert.com/2015 ... 1525871119

P.S. I voted remain. But I'm not so dense that I ignore reality.

Yes, and no.

Normally when we transpose an EU directive into UK legislature, we try to just copy-and-paste, to ensure the UK law is properly aligned with the Directive. In the case of the MCD, we didn't see much benefit in the new rules, compared to our existing FCA regulations, so we a) negotiated the MCD to match up with our existing rules as much as possible, and b) implemented it by modifying existing UK rules to achieve the end goal (rather than just dropping the EU rules into our rule book).

In the case of second mortgages, the underlying issue is that previously they were governed by credit rules, not mortgage rules. The UK had already decided to switch them to fall under mortgage regulation BEFORE the MCD came along. The MCD merely provided a deadline for this to happen.

The changes were consulted by both the FCA and the government. It would appear neither spotted the loophole of re-mortgagers being denied access to cheaper products.

So, this may be an EU Directive, but it is very much the UK version of it. The bureaucracy is of the UK's design.
And, specifically, not an Italian Job, if this thread is to remain on topic.
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Re: Back from the Euro Zone

Postby Boro Boy » Wed May 09, 2018 5:08 pm

pabenny wrote:The claim was (again) that EU membership will result in UK bureaucracy taking on the character of Italian bureaucracy

Both of the examples quoted are changes in regulation to deal with a changing world and are nothing to do with whether we become like Italy.



No that's not right. Both originated from the EU Directives. :crazy:
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Re: Back from the Euro Zone

Postby pabenny » Wed May 09, 2018 5:15 pm

Boro Boy wrote:
pabenny wrote:The claim was (again) that EU membership will result in UK bureaucracy taking on the character of Italian bureaucracy

Both of the examples quoted are changes in regulation to deal with a changing world and are nothing to do with whether we become like Italy.



No that's not right. Both originated from the EU Directives. :crazy:


No-one is disagreeing that GDPR and the Mortgage Directive are EU law. And I'm happy to debate - separately - whether more or less regulation is preferable and on what basis those regulations should be made.

But the fact of more regulation does not mean UK bureaucracy taking on the character of Italian bureaucracy - which is the claim that you started with.
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Re: Back from the Euro Zone

Postby Boro Boy » Wed May 09, 2018 5:20 pm

pabenny wrote:
Boro Boy wrote:
pabenny wrote:The claim was (again) that EU membership will result in UK bureaucracy taking on the character of Italian bureaucracy

Both of the examples quoted are changes in regulation to deal with a changing world and are nothing to do with whether we become like Italy.



No that's not right. Both originated from the EU Directives. :crazy:


No-one is disagreeing that GDPR and the Mortgage Directive are EU law. And I'm happy to debate - separately - whether more or less regulation is preferable and on what basis those regulations should be made.

But the fact of more regulation does not mean UK bureaucracy taking on the character of Italian bureaucracy - which is the claim that you started with.


Ask any small business which has to enact the rules related to GDPR and I am sure like myself they will completely disagree with you; the overwealding legislation is a hammer to crack a nut...
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Re: Back from the Euro Zone

Postby pabenny » Wed May 09, 2018 5:38 pm

You started off with your kafka-esque experiences in Italy, such as queueing to get a form so that you could have stamped to send off somewhere else, etc.

Which part of GDPR, as implemented by the UK government, has this 'Italian' character?
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Re: Back from the Euro Zone

Postby Boro Boy » Wed May 09, 2018 5:50 pm

pabenny wrote:You started off with your kafka-esque experiences in Italy, such as queueing to get a form so that you could have stamped to send off somewhere else, etc.

Which part of GDPR, as implemented by the UK government, has this 'Italian' character?
Like any small business I will say - all of it! :crazy:
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