Is the Euro experiment about to collapse...?

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Re: Is the Euro experiment about to collapse...?

Postby William Joseph1 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:44 pm

Chadwick wrote:The classic example is the Poll Tax. If everyone had just put up and shut up, we'd still have it.

A very extreme example and a very different matter. The poll tax was universally unpopular whereas brexit is/was acceptable to just over half of the electorate. Not even in the same league

Chadwick wrote:It was a general reference to your comment about democracy. Democracy is a system where the people get to vote on their representatives and by extension their policies. A system where we have no control is not a democracy. For example, we could have voted in the Lib Dems at the last general election, along with their policy of stopping brexit. For various reasons, that didn't happen, but democracy means we could have done so,

The Liberal Democrats do not have any hope of getting in. Ironically if I thought they had a chance I might vote for them. I suspect that is also the position of a lot of other people as well. If only their were enough people to vote with their gut instincts.

We may have democracy in this country. but with two party politics it does not serve us very well. Which is why I maintain that we are actually not a very democratic country at all. The maybot pretty much is guaranteed to get what she wants give or take a few dissenters from among her own ranks who will rattle and shout, but not be prepared to bring her down, yet!

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Re: Is the Euro experiment about to collapse...?

Postby Chadwick » Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:21 pm

William Joseph1 wrote:
Chadwick wrote:The classic example is the Poll Tax. If everyone had just put up and shut up, we'd still have it.

A very extreme example and a very different matter. The poll tax was universally unpopular whereas brexit is/was acceptable to just over half of the electorate. Not even in the same league

Well, we're trying to convince the other half that it's not acceptable...


William Joseph1 wrote:
Chadwick wrote:It was a general reference to your comment about democracy. Democracy is a system where the people get to vote on their representatives and by extension their policies. A system where we have no control is not a democracy. For example, we could have voted in the Lib Dems at the last general election, along with their policy of stopping brexit. For various reasons, that didn't happen, but democracy means we could have done so,

The Liberal Democrats do not have any hope of getting in. Ironically if I thought they had a chance I might vote for them. I suspect that is also the position of a lot of other people as well. If only their were enough people to vote with their gut instincts.

We may have democracy in this country. but with two party politics it does not serve us very well. Which is why I maintain that we are actually not a very democratic country at all.

It is frustrating that we barely have a credible 2nd party. Corbyn comes with his own set of problems for many, meaning he is also unpopular and he has divided the Labour party. Had they got a more centrist leader, they might be more appealing and unified, and might be able to replace the Tories and change our current course. As it is, despite lacking a proper majority, the Tories don't face a strong opposition.

For what it's worth, I voted with my gut instincts, despite living in a Tory stronghold, and having previously supported our local Tory.


William Joseph1 wrote:The maybot pretty much is guaranteed to get what she wants give or take a few dissenters from among her own ranks who will rattle and shout, but not be prepared to bring her down, yet!

The Tory party will keep May at the helm until Brexit is finished. No one else wants to take the blame. That gives her power because she knows no one really wants to replace her. As soon as brexit is over, they will ditch her and blame her for all the negative repercussions.

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Re: Is the Euro experiment about to collapse...?

Postby pabenny » Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:31 pm

Chadwick wrote:The Tory party will keep May at the helm until Brexit is finished. No one else wants to take the blame.


But how long will that be? It's not difficult to envisage a lengthy transition period because of the practical complexities - such as building customs infrastructure, both concrete and IT.

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Re: Is the Euro experiment about to collapse...?

Postby Boro Boy » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:00 pm

blythburgh wrote:
Chadwick wrote:
Boro Boy wrote:"And remember the referendum vote was only won by 4%". Remind me how many voters was that...!?!

You really want to pick that fight?

OK...

Total valid votes = 33,551,983
50% of above +1 vote = 16,775,993 = this number of votes wins

Actual votes for Remain = 16,141,241
Number of additional votes necessary for Remain win = 16,775,993-16,141241 = 634,752
% of additional votes necessary for Remain win = 1.89% of valid votes

In words, rather than maths, if just 634,752 people had voted Remain instead of Leave, you would be accepting the democratic decision to stay in the EU and we wouldn't hear a peep out of you, because you would be getting over it and backing the will of the people.

Anyone crowing about a 'decisive' victory or the 'clear will of the people' is ignoring the facts :roll:. Leave won by less than 2% and less that 635,000 votes. That is an exceedingly slim margin.


And given the death of some leave voters and the amount of people who were denied a vote because they were in the 16 to 18 age group (precedence for them getting a vote in the Scottish Referendum) who would overwhellmingly vote remain and if those who have lived abroad for over 15 years had been given the vote (a promise the Tories gave them years ago to boost their vote in General Elections) then if the vote was today Remain would win by a small percentage. And you can add those who only voted leave because of the LIE about the NHS on the Leave Bus.


You forgot those who voted remain after the lie that the world will come to an end if we leave the EU...!?! ;)
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Re: Is the Euro experiment about to collapse...?

Postby blythburgh » Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:35 am

Boro Boy wrote:
You forgot those who voted remain after the lie that the world will come to an end if we leave the EU...!?! ;)


Nobody said that. But you cannot deny the LIE on the bus etc re NHS
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Re: Is the Euro experiment about to collapse...?

Postby Boro Boy » Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:51 am

blythburgh wrote:
Boro Boy wrote:
You forgot those who voted remain after the lie that the world will come to an end if we leave the EU...!?! ;)


Nobody said that. But you cannot deny the LIE on the bus etc re NHS


Not only did they say it, they are still saying it. Take your blinkers off and you will hear project fear MkI, MkII, MkIII, MkIV etc...
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Re: Is the Euro experiment about to collapse...?

Postby Chadwick » Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:01 am

pabenny wrote:
Chadwick wrote:The Tory party will keep May at the helm until Brexit is finished. No one else wants to take the blame.


But how long will that be? It's not difficult to envisage a lengthy transition period because of the practical complexities - such as building customs infrastructure, both concrete and IT.

Nonsense, apparently it's really easy.

Liam Fox wrote:The free trade agreement that we will have to do with the European Union should be one of the easiest in human history

Michael Gove wrote:The day after we vote to leave we hold all the cards and we can choose the path we want

John Redwood wrote:Getting out of the EU can be quick and easy

Nigel Farage wrote:To me, Brexit is easy

David Davis wrote:There will be no downside to Brexit, only a considerable upside


You see, we don't need experts to do this.

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Re: Is the Euro experiment about to collapse...?

Postby Chadwick » Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:10 am

Boro Boy wrote:
blythburgh wrote:
Boro Boy wrote:
You forgot those who voted remain after the lie that the world will come to an end if we leave the EU...!?! ;)


Nobody said that. But you cannot deny the LIE on the bus etc re NHS


Not only did they say it, they are still saying it. Take your blinkers off and you will hear project fear MkI, MkII, MkIII, MkIV etc...


Boro Boy has a point. The government's own analysis is that whatever the outcome, we will be worse off.
The UK will be worse off after Brexit regardless of the terms of its departure from the EU, according to a leaked Government impact assessment.

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Re: Is the Euro experiment about to collapse...?

Postby Boro Boy » Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:51 pm

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Re: Is the Euro experiment about to collapse...?

Postby macliam » Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:56 am

Boro Boy wrote:I wasn't expecting this: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-44625625

and? It's an internal French matter....
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