Brexit Bounces too

Topical debate, moral dilemmas and quirky questions. Join fellow shareholders in civilised discussions of issues of interest
kevinchess1
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Re: Brexit Bounces too

Post by kevinchess1 » Sat May 25 2019 10:29pm

William Joseph1 wrote:
Tue May 21 2019 10:05am
Boro Boy wrote:
Mon May 20 2019 11:56pm
Was Michael Heseltine so up his own posterior that he thought he could stab his own party in the back and still remain untouchable...!?! https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/t ... spartanntp :wave:
What makes you think he did not expect to have the whip removed? I am far from surprised personally.
I'd be surprised if he didn't expect this either
Cant have one of your most famous members saying 'Vote for someone else.' What else were they going to do?
I mean, can you imagine the uproar if someone posted here how much better Quiditchco or Topcat are?
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kevinchess1
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Re: Brexit Bounces too

Post by kevinchess1 » Sat May 25 2019 10:31pm

William Joseph1 wrote:
Sat May 25 2019 8:19am
You think Brexit goes away once we have left? I repeat, Brexit is here for a good few years yet. We have a greatly divided country. It will take years to unify again, the ramifications and repercussions, lost and newly gained opportunities are going to haunt us forever.
You think Brexit goes away once if we cancel it?
Brexit is here for a good few years yet. We have a greatly divided country. It will take years to unify again, the ramifications and repercussions, lost and newly gained opportunities are going to haunt us forever.
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kevinchess1
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Re: Brexit Bounces too

Post by kevinchess1 » Sat May 25 2019 10:33pm

Chadwick wrote:
Fri May 24 2019 3:37pm
Oh good, it feels like ages since we had a Tory leadership contest in the middle of an international relations crisis.
Yes
Because her limping on would have been so MUCH better
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kevinchess1
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Re: Brexit Bounces too

Post by kevinchess1 » Sat May 25 2019 10:36pm

blythburgh wrote:
Tue May 21 2019 11:02am
...They are happy to vote against their own party when not in charge but when in power everyone must do as they say.
Much like everyone else then
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kevinchess1
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Re: Brexit Bounces too

Post by kevinchess1 » Sat May 25 2019 10:45pm

Chadwick wrote:
Thu May 23 2019 8:20pm
I think this election will be viewed sort of as a 2nd ref. Because we're electing people to posts they will probably not take up, and it's not seen as a 'national' election, I think the public will generally feel free to vote as though it were a referendum.

Certainly, there is no point in voting for the Brexit Party if you wanted them to do anything. Their only policy is to not take their seats because we have left. Weirdly, I've seen people arguing that they will be able to frustrate EU functioning, but how they will do this when we have left and they are not MEPs is beyond me. The irony of electing people who are unelected has also not escaped me, nor the claim that our MEPs are suddenly very powerful people and we are not in fact ruled by Brussels.

A vote for the Brexit Party is therefore just a protest vote. And I fear it will fail there too. The government will see pro-Brexit votes as a message of 'get on with it'. Not that they should go for No Deal, or abandon May's Deal, but simply endorsement of finishing it quickly. The Brexit supporting public are likely to feel just as betrayed when their protest vote is turned into support for the Tories.

If you are a frustrated Brexiteer, feeling let down by the government and the two major parties, voting for any pro-brexit party will not advance your cause. Bizarrely, the only way to get your voice heard and to tell the government what kind of brexit you want, is to support a 2nd ref. And that means in this election, voting for the LibDems or the Greens (or Plaid in Wales, SNP in Scotland).

These parties are campaigning to stop what we are doing and put it o the public again. But this time to phrase the question more carefully. Instead of running round like headless chickens, arguing over what 'leave' means, a 2nd ref will allow us to make it clear.
And what exactly. Would the referendum question be in your opinion?

If its exactly the same as last time then what would be the point
Are you really confident that the result would be any different from last time?
Because i'm not
And what if the result was 51-49 to remain or Less than 17,000,000 voted to stay
Would it become 'Best-of-three?'

If the referendum was 'Leave without a deal' or 'Stay' that might be closer but would either side be happy with the result?
IN MY OPINION another vote make the position worse, if that's is actually possible
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Richard Frost
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Re: Brexit Bounces too

Post by Richard Frost » Sat May 25 2019 11:03pm

kevinchess1 wrote:
Sat May 25 2019 10:31pm
William Joseph1 wrote:
Sat May 25 2019 8:19am
You think Brexit goes away once we have left? I repeat, Brexit is here for a good few years yet. We have a greatly divided country. It will take years to unify again, the ramifications and repercussions, lost and newly gained opportunities are going to haunt us forever.
You think Brexit goes away once if we cancel it?
Brexit is here for a good few years yet. We have a greatly divided country. It will take years to unify again, the ramifications and repercussions, lost and newly gained opportunities are going to haunt us forever.
Where have I ever suggested that article 50 should be cancelled or revoked?

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Re: Brexit Bounces too

Post by Chadwick » Sun May 26 2019 6:53pm

kevinchess1 wrote:
Sat May 25 2019 10:45pm
Chadwick wrote:
Thu May 23 2019 8:20pm
If you are a frustrated Brexiteer, feeling let down by the government and the two major parties, voting for any pro-brexit party will not advance your cause. Bizarrely, the only way to get your voice heard and to tell the government what kind of brexit you want, is to support a 2nd ref. And that means in this election, voting for the LibDems or the Greens (or Plaid in Wales, SNP in Scotland).

These parties are campaigning to stop what we are doing and put it o the public again. But this time to phrase the question more carefully. Instead of running round like headless chickens, arguing over what 'leave' means, a 2nd ref will allow us to make it clear.
And what exactly. Would the referendum question be in your opinion?

If its exactly the same as last time then what would be the point
Are you really confident that the result would be any different from last time?
Because i'm not
And what if the result was 51-49 to remain or Less than 17,000,000 voted to stay
Would it become 'Best-of-three?'

If the referendum was 'Leave without a deal' or 'Stay' that might be closer but would either side be happy with the result?
IN MY OPINION another vote make the position worse, if that's is actually possible
I think another vote would make the situation less bad. I'm not sure what the exact question should be, but it needs to reflect the actual options available to us. Last time, 'remain' and 'leave' were quite loose definitions. As has now been proven beyond any dispute, 'leave' in particular covered a wide range of options. One of the biggest mistakes was to trigger Article 50 before we knew what we wanted 'leave' to mean. But that's an old story now, so lets move on.

I think the 2nd ref has to be a form of 'alternative vote', where we rank the options in order of preference. If no one option gets majority (50%?) support, then the lowest scoring option is discarded. The 'discarded' votes are reexamined and their second choices are added to the appropriate totals. And so on until there is a majority winner. There may be a better voting system, but something on those lines will ensure we get a 'most supported' result.

The advantage of an AV system, is that all the options could be on the table, including cancelling Art50 are remaining in the EU. For remain to win, it will have to beat all the other Brexit options combined. If 52% of the population favour some other form of brexit, then the laws of mathematics mean the remain choice will not win - it will always come second to the most popular Brexit option.

That would tell the government exactly what form of brexit we want, and then finally, they might just be able to get on with it and deliver what we voted for - because they will know what we voted for.

Richard Frost
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Re: Brexit Bounces too

Post by Richard Frost » Mon May 27 2019 9:00am

No news here then? Predictions come true.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48417228

pabenny
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Re: Brexit Bounces too

Post by pabenny » Mon May 27 2019 9:47am

If there were to be a second referendum with multiple options, the choices would seem to be Remain/Deal/No deal. It doesn't seem possible to negotiate alternative deals.

I can't see many Remainers being willing to put Deal as second pref and none going for No Deal. Leavers' calculus might be different (some No Dealers might prefer Remain to a disliked Deal or indeed Dealers might wish to avoid No Deal) but broadly Leavers wouldn't want to put Remain as second preference.

Does AV make any sense in that scenario?

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Re: Brexit Bounces too

Post by BeautifulSunshine » Mon May 27 2019 5:08pm

Brexit Party - didn't they do well.
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