How dare you, Jo

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Chadwick
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Re: How dare you, Jo

Post by Chadwick » Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:57 pm

expressman33 wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:25 pm
Chadwick wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:11 pm
People vote for political parties based on what they say they will do in their manifesto.
If enough people back a party, that is a mandate for that party to do what it said it would do.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Well, yes, perhaps I am thinking of simpler times. But that's the principle.

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Re: How dare you, Jo

Post by Boro Boy » Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:36 pm

Liberal Democrats will be renamed for the next election: Liberal Undemocrats… :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: How dare you, Jo

Post by AAAlphaThunder » Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:13 pm

Boro Boy wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:36 pm
Liberal Democrats will be renamed for the next election: Liberal Undemocrats… :lol: :lol: :lol:
No matter what names you call them they will nonetheless do very well for themselves.
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Re: How dare you, Jo

Post by blythburgh » Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:11 am

Chadwick wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:11 pm
blythburgh wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:21 am
This is not democracy. If the conference backs this vote then that is democracy within the party. But it is not the democracy I can vote for. If this becomes official party policy then I definitely will not be voting LibDem at the next General Election or any other election until this stance is dropped.

I want a People's vote on the eventual deal or no deal that is on offer. I will never support a move that is so undemocratic.
It is democracy.

People vote for political parties based on what they say they will do in their manifesto.
If enough people back a party, that is a mandate for that party to do what it said it would do.

It's a more direct form of democracy than a referendum. There is a built-in expectation that the winning party will put its manifesto into action.
A referendum by contrast is just an opinion poll. It requires a further separate commitment from government to achieve anything approaching the status of a GE manifesto.
A manifesto is a series of things that they want to do if in Govt. People choose to vote for the party that has more of the stuff they really want their Govt. to do than the other parties. Or to try and stop a different party winning.

An election is not as fair as a referendum on things like Brexit because the majority of people will end up voting for a candidate that is not actually elected in their constituency. Even in those seats where over 50% vote for the winning candidate there will be people who did not vote for the winner.

So an GE cannot tell the Govt. of the day what the whole of the public want re Brexit.

And on the subject of a People's Vote I had done some surveys recently that have included a Brexit question that asks if I want to stop Brexit completely and stay in the EU. I could never countenance that happening. That is not democracy and I want nothing to do with it
Keep smiling because the light at the end of someone's tunnel may be you, Ron Cheneler

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Re: How dare you, Jo

Post by blythburgh » Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:14 am

Boro Boy wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:36 pm
Liberal Democrats will be renamed for the next election: Liberal Undemocrats… :lol: :lol: :lol:

Could end up like UKIP when they won 10 million votes and got no MP's. Of course they will have some but not in proportion to their votes. But we have had a referendum on changing the voting system and unless Scotland go independent or we dramatically cut the number of MP's I can see no argument for having another one. Just a pity the LibDem leadership did not insist on a stand alone vote on PR but they did not and I accept the vote of the public. I am not happy with the result but I must accept it.
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Re: How dare you, Jo

Post by expressman33 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:31 am

AAAlphaThunder wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:35 pm
expressman33 wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:44 am
If we do have another referendum then one of the options should be that if there is a remain vote then we should have a further referendum in 5 years time
Throw good money after bad money.
Nicola Sturgeon wants another Scottish referendum so why shouldn't we if there is a remain vote ?

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Re: How dare you, Jo

Post by blythburgh » Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:43 am

expressman33 wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:31 am
AAAlphaThunder wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:35 pm
expressman33 wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:44 am
If we do have another referendum then one of the options should be that if there is a remain vote then we should have a further referendum in 5 years time
Throw good money after bad money.
Nicola Sturgeon wants another Scottish referendum so why shouldn't we if there is a remain vote ?
The only justification for a 2nd Scottish one is the whole of Britain was in the EU when the last one was done, the majority of Scots voted remain but will be forced to leave. How strong that justification is I am in two minds about

We voted for a pig in a poke, now we can vote on what we know will be the outcome of remaining or leaving the EU.

No justification for a third one IMHO whether there is a majority for remain or for leave
Keep smiling because the light at the end of someone's tunnel may be you, Ron Cheneler

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Re: How dare you, Jo

Post by pabenny » Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:55 am

blythburgh wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:11 am
And on the subject of a People's Vote I had done some surveys recently that have included a Brexit question that asks if I want to stop Brexit completely and stay in the EU. I could never countenance that happening. That is not democracy and I want nothing to do with it
Why is that not democracy?

There is a difference between what I want (Monster Raving Looney Party winning an overall majority) and being accepting the majority vote (MRLP loose their deposit everywhere except Norfolk).

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Re: How dare you, Jo

Post by blythburgh » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:26 am

pabenny wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:55 am
blythburgh wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:11 am
And on the subject of a People's Vote I had done some surveys recently that have included a Brexit question that asks if I want to stop Brexit completely and stay in the EU. I could never countenance that happening. That is not democracy and I want nothing to do with it
Why is that not democracy?

There is a difference between what I want (Monster Raving Looney Party winning an overall majority) and being accepting the majority vote (MRLP loose their deposit everywhere except Norfolk).
Brexit crosses party boundaries and though we want to leave/remain the party we choose to vote for in a GE might take an opposing view. But we still have to make a choice of party and choose the one that best represents our views on many things. Brexit is too important to be buried by the other things that influence how we vote but then again so is the economy, health service, environment etc. We should not have to vote for the party that will give us the brexit we want but we think will not give us the other things we care just as deeply about.

I tend to vote for losers in local and national elections but that is democracy at work. Having had one referendum to settle it amongst Tory MP's once and for all and found that has failed to work we need a definitive one that all sides accept this time. And if the country votes Leave knowing far more about that outcome then I must accept it in the same way as I accept my MP and Councillor is not from my favoured party
Keep smiling because the light at the end of someone's tunnel may be you, Ron Cheneler

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Re: How dare you, Jo

Post by kevinchess1 » Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:32 pm

Politically incorrect since 69

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