imutual.co.uk

Boro Boy wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 01 2020 12:16pm

I find this policy hard to believe and it may be one that your club should review?

It's not a policy - an observation and pretty well known fact about share trading to be honest. You might want to read this, taking particular note of this bullet:

After a stock goes ex-dividend, the share price typically drops by the amount of the dividend paid to reflect the fact that new shareholders are not entitled to that payment.

On your next point:

Boro Boy wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 01 2020 12:16pm

To say the club voted for it is of course true but were they given the facts that had the sale happened a couple of days later that they would have qualified for a dividend payment?

Who would be responsible for that then, seeing we are all equal members and nobody is paid?

Boro Boy wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 01 2020 12:16pm

Additionally the statement that the share price drops immediately after the ex-div date is passed seems to be untrue in this instance: sold 26th range 1.095p to 1.12p or 29th May 1.16p to 1.125p

So you would have qualified for a dividend and sold at a higher sale price had the sale occurred later

I didn't state the price drops immediately after the ex-divi date - you decided I said that! I did say that it normally does. In this particular case, yes, it shows it did not but we are in a strange market at the moment and hindsight is a wonderful thing. There have been times in the past when we should have sold before going ex-div as we'd have ended up with more money than what was on offer after, including the divi. It's all too easy to present facts after the time to prove a point, when on another day the opposite could have happened and it would be unproven. It is especially frustrating to see someone try that old trick when they previously suggest we should sell the share at a loss.

Boro Boy wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 01 2020 12:16pm

..where members given that possible scenario when asked to vote on the sale

Who would be responsible for that then, seeing we are all equal members, nobody is paid and everyone has an open forum to share anything they wish to?

I think you fundamentally do not understand how the club's polls work - once we have bought a share an open-ended poll is created for members to vote on hold, buy or sell. Members decide what their view on the share is and then change their vote according to how they want the club to react. In this case the scale tipped in favour of selling and then it was sold according to that desire.

Boro Boy wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 01 2020 12:16pm

or did someone else make that decision on their behalf?

Would I be right in thinking you are suggesting I interfered in the poll somehow to get the result I wanted? Being the chairman of the club is a poisoned chalice. I try to provide points for discussion and polls for members to interact with. There is no reward for it. We are only talking small beans investments. Why on Earth would I ever feel the desire to do what you are suggesting?

If there is ever a time for your preferred insulatory WTF emoji it is now

garindan wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 01 2020 12:52pm

Boro Boy wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 01 2020 12:16pm

To say the club voted for it is of course true but were they given the facts that had the sale happened a couple of days later that they would have qualified for a dividend payment?

Who would be responsible for that then, seeing we are all equal members and nobody is paid?

You really are missing my point, I'm quite sure you always do your best for the club, that is not in question: I am in all favour of The Club as another USP of iMutual. My questions just relate as to why it has been relatively unsuccessful and decision process may be part of that and I was looking at the most recent decision.

It seems to me that if the members had been given the full facts (that if they made the decision to sell but if they waited a couple of days they would qualify for a dividend) that may inform the decision makers and results may be more informed and therefore more chance of successful outcome.

So was it a case that someone made the decision to put the proposal forward knowing the dividend was about to occur and miss it or was it an automated date when the proposal was put forward ignorant of the dividend occurrence?

Boro Boy I think you might have misunderstood how the vote works. There is no proposal to buy/sell/hold just ongoing discussion to which any member or non member can join in. In terms of the voting this is open from day 1 of purchase and ongoing. Members freely change their minds continually based on the discussions and their own research. At the point where a category buy/sell etc has the majority of votes that action is carried out regardless of the date.

I was aware of the dividend date but worked out we were looking at roughly £15. Whilst obviously good to have the share has risen/fallen by much more than that inter-day on some occasions so I was happy to lock in our profit and move on. Part of my thought process was shares normally fall when they go ex-div. It might not have happened on this occasion but hey-ho that is the calculated risk we have to take.

Beachboy wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 01 2020 2:08pm

Boro Boy I think you might have misunderstood how the vote works. There is no proposal to buy/sell/hold just ongoing discussion to which any member or no member can join in. In terms of the voting this is open from day 1 of purchase and ongoing. Members freely change their minds continually based on the discussions and their own research. At the point where a category buy/sell etc has the majority of votes that action is carried out regardless of the date.

I was aware of the dividend date but worked out we were looking at roughly £15. Whilst obviously good to have the share risen/fallen by much more than that inter-day on some occasions so I was happy to lock in our profit and move on. Part of my thought process was shares normally fall when they go ex-div. It might not have happened on this occasion but hey-ho that is the calculated risk we have to take.

Thank you for that; do you think other members may have made the decision on the same basis or should any proposal to Buy/sell/hold should highlight this or do you agree with the statement:

garindan wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 01 2020 11:48am

The due dividend was neither here nor there,

Boro Boy wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 01 2020 1:50pm

You really are missing my point, I'm quite sure you always do your best for the club, that is not in question: I am in all favour of The Club as another USP of iMutual. My questions just relate as to why it has been relatively unsuccessful and decision process may be part of that and I was looking at the most recent decision.

Running a club like this is not the same as being an individual investor with complete autonomy, or a small group of friends sat in a pub who meet regularly and share a plan. Everything is electronic, we are dispersed throughout the country and decision making has been a problem until recently. The new way we work has been much more effective.

It depends how you look at it, but we have been successful to one degree or another in the vast majority of purchases made since the beginning - 20/24 that have been sold made profit, 2/24 lost only 0.5% or less, 2/24 were for the same company that went bust. We were massively let down by the one company going bust, which is a constant regret and any investor in Carillion has reason to be very pissed with the lying management. The 3 others that have much smaller sums invested in them are still an issue, all of which were on the road to recovery until Covid-19 hit.

I think the type of shares we used to invest in weren't interesting and the process was difficult. Now we are investing in much more interesting companies and the process is much better, is still imperfect but might be the best we can hope for though, noting the issues and how we work within imutual.

This aside - it does not explain some of your other comments and accusations for which I am still perplexed you'd think it and rather offended.

Boro Boy wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 01 2020 1:50pm

It seems to me that if the members had been given the full facts (that if they made the decision to sell but if they waited a couple of days they would qualify for a dividend) that may inform the decision makers and results may be more informed and therefore more chance of successful outcome.

Members need to furnish themselves with the information that will help them make an informed choice of what to do. I encourage all members to post their thoughts to help members make decisions. I can only speak from my personal perspective, but I was aware of there being a dividend due but was happy to let it go regardless.

Your point is still aimed at saying those who voted to sell were wrong and you were right, after the event. It is not about that. Decisions have to be made, one was made and then implemented for better or for worse. One could predict the sale, releasing funds to buy another share, which then makes 20% in a few weeks counters your argument. It is swings and roundabouts - it may or may not happen. It's life and so long as members are comfortable with it then it's not a problem.

Boro Boy wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 01 2020 1:50pm

So was it a case that someone made the decision to put the proposal forward knowing the dividend was about to occur and miss it or was it an automated date when the proposal was put forward ignorant of the dividend occurrence?

You misunderstand again I'm afraid. There was no proposal put forward for a vote, as it is an ongoing open-ended poll noted in the last reply to you, as follows:

garindan wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 01 2020 12:52pm

I think you fundamentally do not understand how the club's polls work - once we have bought a share an open-ended poll is created for members to vote on hold, buy or sell. Members decide what their view on the share is and then change their vote according to how they want the club to react. In this case the scale tipped in favour of selling and then it was sold according to that desire.

A question that remains unanswered and may be difficult to ever answer:

I wonder how many members who voted to sell would have voted to delay the sale a couple of days if made aware of that it meant they would then qualify for a dividend...?

I believe it was my vote that tipped the scales here - although all votes have equal weight - and I made the decision to change from hold to buy based on the knowledge of the coming dividend and my previous experience - which matches what garindan suggests - where the share falls once its gone ex-divi. Of course it doesn't always happen, but that's part of the game, unfortunately.

Plenty of people chase dividend shares in the run up to divi day and then sell once its bagged, inflating and then deflating the price accordingly. It's not happened here, but I'm not one to look back.

Nothing worse than buying something from a shop and then going back to see it in the sale. Best not to look and make the purchase in the moment for the purpose you need it for. Hindsight is always wise.

With respect I think some perspective is needed here. We are talking £15 out of a share club holding of over £5k. We can get movements of several hundred pounds a day across our portfolio and sometimes across just one share.

Every CIC member is responsible for their own decisions. There is a clear link to a broker page for every share we hold which includes readily available details re dividend dates. I accessed them in less than 30 seconds from this link for REIT. Also they are very easily to find via Google. The way we operate as an online CIC, with no paid support, means that every member takes on this level of personal responsibility.

Boro Boy wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 01 2020 2:50pm

A question that remains unanswered and may be difficult to ever answer:

I wonder how many members who voted to sell would have voted to delay the sale a couple of days if made aware of that it meant they would then qualify for a dividend...?

I can have a crack at it, though it is only a logical guestimate - I think there were already at least 4 people with a sell vote throughout the period, so I'd say all four wanted to sell, irrespective of the dividend as they'd have been happy to take a lower price than we sold for. That leaves 3 people making up the remaining 7 total votes, of which I was one (as I'd been on the fence waiting for the price to be OK) and parchedpeas another - both of us knew and wished to proceed.

Don't get me wrong - I do get you think someone could have mentioned it and there was nothing to stop anyone from doing so, including you if you'd have been inclined to post about it, so there was no foul play involved. However, like Beachboy says - it's a tiny amount in the grand scheme of things, I'm not convinced it would have made much difference to the vote and I would stand by my assessment the divi was neither here nor there in this instance. I don't think there is much more anyone can say about it in truth.

Beachboy wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 01 2020 3:16pm

With respect I think some perspective is needed here. We are talking £15 out of a share club holding of over £5k.

To take it a step further, it is actually less than £1 per CIC member. Less then the sort of money you would pay for a cup of coffee if you could buy one in the High Street at the moment.

The other interesting point is that there are zero/zilch CIC members complaining about the way it all works. My guess from that is that all are happy with the system as is.