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Re: IS Teenager Shaminna Begum to lose British Citizenship
Posted: Fri Feb 22 2019 7:08pm
by macliam
I know it's a special case - but Lord help us if we were defined by our teenage selves! It's hard enough for anyone to admit their errors, but it seems that only a complete recantation of her previous beliefs would satisfy the court of public opinion.
On that point, it seems that there is a slim case for her to be tried for high treason - if she did anything more than just sit at home raising children.
Whilst as previously said, the focus of such a crime is a threat to the crown, there is also the act of "adhering to the sovereign's enemies, giving them aid and comfort, in the realm or elsewhere", under which William Joyce (Lord Haw-Haw - a previous 'accused' in the court of public opinion) was tried and executed.
This doesn't bode well for Shamima, because the law can be twisted to suit. Although Joyce was born in America, of Irish parents and was not technically a British subject or open to a charge of High Treason, he had illegally obtained a British passport to travel to Germany. So, as AJP Taylor said, "Technically, Joyce was hanged for making a false statement when applying for a passport, the usual penalty for which is a small fine." Whoops - the victor makes up the rules.....
Re: IS Teenager Shaminna Begum to lose British Citizenship
Posted: Fri Feb 22 2019 7:22pm
by Boro Boy
macliam wrote: ↑Fri Feb 22 2019 7:08pm
I know it's a special case - but Lord help us if we were defined by our teenage selves! It's hard enough for anyone to admit their errors, but it seems that only a complete recantation of her previous beliefs would satisfy the court of public opinion.
On that point, it seems that there is a slim case for her to be tried for high treason - if she did anything more than just sit at home raising children.
Whilst as previously said, the focus of such a crime is a threat to the crown, there is also the act of "
adhering to the sovereign's enemies, giving them aid and comfort, in the realm or elsewhere", under which William Joyce (Lord Haw-Haw - a previous 'accused' in the court of public opinion) was tried and executed.
This doesn't bode well for Shamima, because the law can be twisted to suit. Although Joyce was born in America, of Irish parents and was not technically a British subject or open to a charge of High Treason, he had illegally obtained a British passport to travel to Germany. So, as AJP Taylor said, "
Technically, Joyce was hanged for making a false statement when applying for a passport, the usual penalty for which is a small fine." Whoops - the victor makes up the rules.....
I may have done a few stupid things as a teenager but never hurt anyone and funny... I can't every remember signing myself up with any murderous gang or caliphate...!?!
Re: IS Teenager Shaminna Begum to lose British Citizenship
Posted: Fri Feb 22 2019 7:58pm
by macliam
Boro Boy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 22 2019 7:22pm
I may have done a few stupid things as a teenager but never hurt anyone and funny... I can't every remember signing myself up with any murderous gang or caliphate...!?!
........... and you have proof that she did, have you - or are you just jumping to conclusions, as usual?
Where is your precedent? The wife of Lord Haw-haw was never prosecuted. Were all members of the SS prosecuted for crimes committed by those they fought with? Even those British (and 2 Irishmen) who fought with the SS were brought to trial - not abandoned. Save your vengeance for those who actively fought for daesh - there are far more of them.
Re: IS Teenager Shaminna Begum to lose British Citizenship
Posted: Fri Feb 22 2019 10:58pm
by Boro Boy
macliam wrote: ↑Fri Feb 22 2019 7:58pm
Boro Boy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 22 2019 7:22pm
I may have done a few stupid things as a teenager but never hurt anyone and funny... I can't every remember signing myself up with any murderous gang or caliphate...!?!
........... and you have proof that she did, have you - or are you just jumping to conclusions, as usual?
Where is your precedent? The wife of Lord Haw-haw was never prosecuted. Were all members of the SS prosecuted for crimes committed by those they fought with? Even those British (and 2 Irishmen) who fought with the SS were brought to trial - not abandoned. Save your vengeance for those who actively fought for daesh - there are far more of them.
…is she not in Syria? Is she not seeing heads in bins? Perhaps she's just got a bad holiday? - I would not be so naïve.
A solution (using your beloved EU model) is to have not a UK court but an international court (rather like the courts after the 2nd World War) and have all those traitors associated with IS processed through it for crimes against humanity and crimes of association for all the EU countries, meanwhile storing these scoundrels not in the UK but somewhere in the Ascension Is. or alike
Re: IS Teenager Shaminna Begum to lose British Citizenship
Posted: Fri Feb 22 2019 11:28pm
by macliam
Boro Boy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 22 2019 10:58pm
…is she not in Syria? Is she not seeing heads in bins? Perhaps she's just got a bad holiday? - I would not be so naïve.
A solution (using your beloved EU model) is to have not a UK court but an international court (rather like the courts after the 2nd World War) and have all those traitors associated with IS processed through it for crimes against humanity and crimes of association for all the EU countries, meanwhile storing these scoundrels not in the UK but somewhere in the Ascension Is. or alike
Not naïve, but not actually answering the question, eh? We know where she is and what she has said, but why do you always seem to think "someone else" should clear up
your mess? Many countries will have people who were associated with daesh and I would expect all of them to face their responsibilities, not leave the Kurds or the Turks or someone else to pick up the bill. The UK is quick enough to bomb the bejaysus out of anyone it considers a threat, but hasn't got the wherewithal to deal with a 19 year-old girl, eh?
Oh, and if, by your reference to "your beloved EU model", you are referring to the International Criminal Court in Den Haag, then the clue is in the name - it isn't an EU institution - and it's a court, so you actually have to be charged with something......
AND, it didn't prosecute individual fighters, but those who led them and/or has direct responsibility for war crimes.
Re: IS Teenager Shaminna Begum to lose British Citizenship
Posted: Sat Feb 23 2019 11:26am
by Boro Boy
macliam wrote: ↑Fri Feb 22 2019 11:28pm
Boro Boy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 22 2019 10:58pm
…is she not in Syria? Is she not seeing heads in bins? Perhaps she's just got a bad holiday? - I would not be so naïve.
A solution (using your beloved EU model) is to have not a UK court but an international court (rather like the courts after the 2nd World War) and have all those traitors associated with IS processed through it for crimes against humanity and crimes of association for all the EU countries, meanwhile storing these scoundrels not in the UK but somewhere in the Ascension Is. or alike
Not naïve, but not actually answering the question, eh? We know where she is and what she has said, but why do you always seem to think "someone else" should clear up
your mess? Many countries will have people who were associated with daesh and I would expect all of them to face their responsibilities, not leave the Kurds or the Turks or someone else to pick up the bill. The UK is quick enough to bomb the bejaysus out of anyone it considers a threat, but hasn't got the wherewithal to deal with a 19 year-old girl, eh?
Oh, and if, by your reference to "your beloved EU model", you are referring to the International Criminal Court in Den Haag, then the clue is in the name - it isn't an EU institution - and it's a court, so you actually have to be charged with something......
AND, it didn't prosecute individual fighters, but those who led them and/or has direct responsibility for war crimes.
I don't think you read what I said but rather what you wanted to hear or think I said...! IS is an International problem and I was offering an International uniform solution.
Re: IS Teenager Shaminna Begum to lose British Citizenship
Posted: Sat Feb 23 2019 11:50am
by blythburgh
Men are in jail for grooming teenagers for sex. The teenagers are regarded as victims.
One 15 year old child is groomed by Daish and its supporters and she is regarded as a traitor. And remember even if she had turned against Daish she could not risk her safety and the life of her baby by saying anything against them.
How many members of the great British Public were Christians (substitue Muslim, Jew, Hindu etc as required) at 15 only to become agnostic or even atheist when they grew up. Is there a difference in reality? She was an impressionable child and it is possible she could be shown the real way of Islam and become a poster girl against Daish. The most affective anti Daish people in this country are often those who went to fight in Bosnia, came home and were deradicalised.
Re: IS Teenager Shaminna Begum to lose British Citizenship
Posted: Sat Feb 23 2019 12:19pm
by Boro Boy
blythburgh wrote: ↑Sat Feb 23 2019 11:50am
Men are in jail for grooming teenagers for sex. The teenagers are regarded as victims.
One 15 year old child is groomed by Daish and its supporters and she is regarded as a traitor. And remember even if she had turned against Daish she could not risk her safety and the life of her baby by saying anything against them.
How many members of the great British Public were Christians (substitue Muslim, Jew, Hindu etc as required) at 15 only to become agnostic or even atheist when they grew up. Is there a difference in reality? She was an impressionable child and it is possible she could be shown the real way of Islam and become a poster girl against Daish. The most affective anti Daish people in this country are often those who went to fight in Bosnia, came home and were deradicalised.
You have a point but in my view a very naïve one. What sort of message would your view send out to future IS members and their supporters? We cannot become a soft touch or we will suffer dramatically as a result. There should be a clear black and white message, expect the full strength of the law if you associate yourself with these murderers! End of story.
Re: IS Teenager Shaminna Begum to lose British Citizenship
Posted: Sat Feb 23 2019 1:17pm
by macliam
Boro Boy wrote: ↑Sat Feb 23 2019 12:19pm
blythburgh wrote: ↑Sat Feb 23 2019 11:50am
Men are in jail for grooming teenagers for sex. The teenagers are regarded as victims.
One 15 year old child is groomed by Daish and its supporters and she is regarded as a traitor. And remember even if she had turned against Daish she could not risk her safety and the life of her baby by saying anything against them.
How many members of the great British Public were Christians (substitue Muslim, Jew, Hindu etc as required) at 15 only to become agnostic or even atheist when they grew up. Is there a difference in reality? She was an impressionable child and it is possible she could be shown the real way of Islam and become a poster girl against Daish. The most affective anti Daish people in this country are often those who went to fight in Bosnia, came home and were deradicalised.
You have a point but in my view a very naïve one. What sort of message would your view send out to future IS members and their supporters? We cannot become a soft touch or we will suffer dramatically as a result. There should be a clear black and white message, expect the full strength of the law if you associate yourself with these murderers! End of story.
Again, you are not talking about "law", but your interpretation of it. If there is a case to answer, let charges be brought, but extra-judicial punishment is not acceptable because someone is found guilty in the court of public opinion. States have a higher level of moral responsibility than individuals or groups.
As for your earlier rebuttal, your suggestion of the use of the ICC (or similar) is irrelevant as they specifically deal in cases where the defendant is charged with crimes against international law - and such people are not left in the hands of a non-state entity until such time as they come to trial.
Re: IS Teenager Shaminna Begum to lose British Citizenship
Posted: Sat Feb 23 2019 6:21pm
by Chadwick
Boro Boy wrote: ↑Sat Feb 23 2019 12:19pm
What sort of message would your view send out to future IS members and their supporters? We cannot become a soft touch or we will suffer dramatically as a result. There should be a clear black and white message, expect the full strength of the law if you associate yourself with these murderers! End of story.
That would indeed be a clear black and white message to show what a nasty vindictive society we are, and show them why they should rise against us and make whatever sacrifices are necessary to overthrow our cruel laws. Allah will forgive them, but the British won't.
Or we could live by our own standards, not theirs.