2nd Brexit referendum?

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parchedpeas
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Re: 2nd Brexit referendum?

Post by parchedpeas » Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:00 am

blythburgh wrote:in the same way as people from all over the then Empire of every colour and creed were fighting under the British flag.
Love it! And now, even better than fighting, they've all come to our place and made it their home. They're bringing up their kids and paying their taxes and helping to support the economy and helping make this country one of the best examples of interconnected communities in the world. And then this Brexit vote came along and stuck two fingers up to what had been a great success story.

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Re: 2nd Brexit referendum?

Post by macliam » Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:33 pm

Chadwick wrote:
macliam wrote:I'm afraid talk of a second referendum is pointless. The damage is done - if the EU agreed to rescind Article 50 it would likely be on worse terms and with a hefty bill for the disruption caused.
I disagree. We haven't left yet, nothing has changed, so there's nothing to revert if we cancel Article 50.
The UK would need to rescind the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill, but as that largely deals what happens on the event of our leaving, it's possible there's no urgency to that.
But our relationship with the EU hasn't changed yet, and we wouldn't be asking for any changes if we rescind Article 50. I would expect our terms to remain the same. Neither would I anticipate a bill from the EU. They're not billing us for their time now, so I would not expect them to bill us if we call the whole show off.
I think you have a rather anglo-centric view. I'm sure the other EU members would tell you that the UKs decision to leave the club has impacted them in many ways already ..... and has incurred costs (not least the travelling circus of the Brexit talks). Why should the EU pay for this?

Even if there is no "hefty bill", why should the EU trust the UK not to renege on agreements or afford it the same privileges it had as an early member? Whether tacit or explicit, there will be costs and the UK could not just resume its position as if nothing had happened.
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Re: 2nd Brexit referendum?

Post by Chadwick » Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:22 pm

macliam wrote:
Chadwick wrote:
macliam wrote:I'm afraid talk of a second referendum is pointless. The damage is done - if the EU agreed to rescind Article 50 it would likely be on worse terms and with a hefty bill for the disruption caused.
I disagree. We haven't left yet, nothing has changed, so there's nothing to revert if we cancel Article 50.
The UK would need to rescind the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill, but as that largely deals what happens on the event of our leaving, it's possible there's no urgency to that.
But our relationship with the EU hasn't changed yet, and we wouldn't be asking for any changes if we rescind Article 50. I would expect our terms to remain the same. Neither would I anticipate a bill from the EU. They're not billing us for their time now, so I would not expect them to bill us if we call the whole show off.
I think you have a rather anglo-centric view. I'm sure the other EU members would tell you that the UKs decision to leave the club has impacted them in many ways already ..... and has incurred costs (not least the travelling circus of the Brexit talks). Why should the EU pay for this?

Even if there is no "hefty bill", why should the EU trust the UK not to renege on agreements or afford it the same privileges it had as an early member? Whether tacit or explicit, there will be costs and the UK could not just resume its position as if nothing had happened.
Nothing has changed. We're negotiating what is going to happen in the future, but right now, our membership of the EU is on the same terms as it was before the referendum. If the EU want to renegotiate that, but this time with someone picking up the tab for both parties, I think that's a brave decision.

However, I agree with you that damage has been done in terms of trust and our ability to negotiate future special terms. If we were to stay in now, and in a couple of years ask for another unique exemption from some policy, the other members know they can say "No. What you gonna do? Leave again?"

I do think we can technically remain in our current relationship, but it will take a while to convince the other EU members that we really mean it, and for them to trust us again.

The other option is that if we leave and then choose to rejoin in a generation's time, we will have lost all the special privileges we currently enjoy, and we will have to negotiate new terms. Hopefully, we'll have a different team doing it then, or we really will be screwed.

The Brexiteers have seriously damaged and diminished Britain's status in Europe. They've committed us to an economic hit and made us look petulant, indecisive, xenophobic and arrogant. It's not a term I will use myself, but if we're going to bandy about words like 'traitor', we should think carefully about who it applies to.

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Re: 2nd Brexit referendum?

Post by Boro Boy » Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:24 pm

ukrussian wrote:
Mel wrote:
I am delighted that the will of the people voted leave and unlike the remainers (Who I regard as traitors) I do accept the democratic vote.
Likewise those who want to destroy this country through narrow nationalism and fascism.

No one voted to be poorer! But who calculated we would be poorer afterwards? Besides I now see the US are talking about us having a special trading agreement on steel etc and avoiding those tariffs Mr Trump is bringing in But only after we are outside the EU... This leads on to say those tariffs will apply to the EU.

Either way even if there is a price to pay in the short term, isn't it better to be a poor master than a rich servant? :eh:
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Re: 2nd Brexit referendum?

Post by pakefield » Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:45 pm

if some get there way we will be the servants of the mighty USA rather than a partner in the EU which we still are until the Brexit divorce becomes finalised.

And I am already poorer due to the brexit inflation

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Re: 2nd Brexit referendum?

Post by parchedpeas » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:28 pm

Boro Boy wrote:
ukrussian wrote:
Mel wrote:
I am delighted that the will of the people voted leave and unlike the remainers (Who I regard as traitors) I do accept the democratic vote.
Likewise those who want to destroy this country through narrow nationalism and fascism.

No one voted to be poorer! But who calculated we would be poorer afterwards? Besides I now see the US are talking about us having a special trading agreement on steel etc and avoiding those tariffs Mr Trump is bringing in But only after we are outside the EU... This leads on to say those tariffs will apply to the EU.

Either way even if there is a price to pay in the short term, isn't it better to be a poor master than a rich servant? :eh:
Can you not see the absurdities in your own argument? You ALREADY HAVE tariff-free steel trade with the LARGEST AND RICHEST MARKET IN THE WORLD. And you have it BY RIGHT! You don't need to negotiate anything! Wake up in the morning, want to sell steel to 1 of 27 other countries: off you go, nobody can stop you. Nobody ever WILL stop you.

You're leaving that to MAYBE get a deal with an erratic government who are, by definition, going to look after their own first.

Brexit is crazy. Don't try and explain it with economics, because you will lose.

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Re: 2nd Brexit referendum?

Post by Boro Boy » Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:22 am

parchedpeas wrote:
Can you not see the absurdities in your own argument? You ALREADY HAVE tariff-free steel trade with the LARGEST AND RICHEST MARKET IN THE WORLD. And you have it BY RIGHT! You don't need to negotiate anything! Wake up in the morning, want to sell steel to 1 of 27 other countries: off you go, nobody can stop you. Nobody ever WILL stop you.

You're leaving that to MAYBE get a deal with an erratic government who are, by definition, going to look after their own first.

Brexit is crazy. Don't try and explain it with economics, because you will lose.

You have obviously forgotten about the loss last year of the Teesside Steel Works; a site that has been producing steel for over a hundred years because the EU would not let the UK Government protect it. Whilst we have to buy Italian shoes etc to protect their industries; not to mention the UK fishing industry (what's left of it)...

Remember they need us more than we need them.

Lets start looking after our own first. :crazy:

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Re: 2nd Brexit referendum?

Post by fattulip74 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:50 am

The leader Luxemburg said something about Britain a couple of days ago which really says something about Brexit to me. Along the lines of, the UK were in Europe with loads of opt-outs now they want to be out with loads of ad-ins.
Personally really want this whole thing called off. Dont understand why the Brexiteers say remainers should keep quiet. If remain won by the same tiny margin and they used the result to call for closer intergration/adopting the Euro/changing our language to Dutch like those people are calling for and end to customs union the Brexshiteers would be going crazy.

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Re: 2nd Brexit referendum?

Post by blythburgh » Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:11 am

I am one of the 48% (would be higher now as some old people have died and they were more likely to vote leave and some of the teens denied a vote now have one and they are mainly remainers).

And I will not shut up, we are leaving but now we must fight for the best possible deal we can get.

As Farage said thinking he had lost "the fight goes on". Not an exact quote but that is definitely was what he intended his message to be.

Problem is there is too much steel in the world, which is why we have had the Trump "America first" tariff suggestion.

And as for fishing decline, that is in part due to global warming, fish like cod and haddock (not the good Captain though) have moved further north. And fishermen have overfished the seas all over the world. Having hurt their own stocks we know have factory fishing ships in areas that support local people. And now the locals can no longer make a living fishing and some of the risk their lives on the most horrendous journeys, knowing how dangerous it will be, in a desperate attempt to reach Europe. FIshermen are not the innocents in this. Do not believe just take everything they say as a fact.
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Re: 2nd Brexit referendum?

Post by parchedpeas » Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:35 am

Boro Boy wrote:
parchedpeas wrote:
Remember they need us more than we need them.

Lets start looking after our own first. :crazy:
No they do not. The EU will protect the integrity of their single market, even if it costs them trade with the UK. If you really believe they need us more than we need them ask yourself why they haven't shifted one centimetre in negotiations and we've given in every time (and will give in again). They don't NEED to.

Re: The steel thing. The UK government could, at any time it likes, step in and take over a business. The French and Dutch run naionalised industries. What you can't do in the EU is subsidise that business unfairly; to basically run it as a loss-making business but to still compete with other EU businesses that don't have such subsidy. That seems fair enough, doesn't it?
There is too much steel in the world. The UK government chose not to get their hands dirty.

The fact that something has been going on for 100s of years does not give it the right to continue for 100s of years.
Think about the kind of free-trade deals that the UK are going to need to sign just to replace what we're losing from the EU. You're going to end up with enourmous countries like the US competing in agriculture with tariff-free access to our market. How many UK farmers are going to go pop?

The Brexit deal that this government is currently negotiating would be a crime against this country if it was enacted. I'll be amazed if Brexit doesn't crumble. No-one of any conscience could allow us to carry on walking off this cliff. It's utter madness.

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