another pointless bridge?

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Chadwick
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Re: another pointless bridge?

Post by Chadwick » Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:46 pm

Boro Boy wrote:
Chadwick wrote:
If all we're trying to do is give ourselves a bigger share of the fishing quota, would it not be easier to negotiate this from inside the EU, rather than outside?

why would we need to negotiate when it will shortly all be under our control anyway...? :wtf:
If we want to fish in EU waters, we will have to seek agreement from the EU.
If the EU wants to fish in our waters, they will have to seek agreement with us.

If we 'take back control' of our 200m EEZ, presumably we will be making changes to who can take what out of the sea. (I assume from your comments that you believe the UK is currently disadvantaged, and by leaving the EU we can rectify that). IF these changes mean non-UK boats are not allowed to take as much as they currently do, then there will be a corresponding curtailment of our rights to fish elsewhere in Europe. We can either shout at the EU from a distance, or engage in negotiation with them.


You seem to think that we can simply pull up the drawbridge and do whatever the hell we want with no consequences. The world doesn't work like that any more. Nations - especially in Europe - are co-dependent and cooperative. We've moved on from 'Us vs Them' to 'Us and Them'. Sure, there are still disagreements, because we're not all one big super state, and EU countries are still sovereign states governed by their own laws. But these disagreements come about because we are connected in so many ways, especially economically.

Brexit was sold on the promise that we could cut these ties and sail off into a glorious sunset. We've spent two years* working out how to leave the EU, and ended up deciding that the best bet is to try and stay in it as much as we can. Some people still don't understand why we can't 'just leave now' (the answer is because it would be catastrophic - planes really would be grounded etc etc). All they really want to do is stop those damn furriners coming over here with their funny food and talking funny and simultaneously stealing our jobs and living off benefits (despite evidence that they contribute more in taxes than they cost).

Your question "why would we need to negotiate when it's under our control" is symptomatic of this blinkered outlook. Think back to your earliest memories of nursery. Do you ever recall being told to share the toys? Ever wondered why?




* UKIP, the ERG, and the various Leave campaigns had been arguing for leaving for much longer, but incredibly hadn't bothered to work out any plan or concept of how to leave or what we would do instead. They literally had one job...

Chadwick
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Re: another pointless bridge?

Post by Chadwick » Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:47 pm

Constantine wrote:How does a thread about a bridge become an argument about fishing quotas? :}
Pakefields Law.

Boro Boy
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Re: another pointless bridge?

Post by Boro Boy » Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:29 pm

Chadwick wrote: * UKIP, the ERG, and the various Leave campaigns had been arguing for leaving for much longer, but incredibly hadn't bothered to work out any plan or concept of how to leave or what we would do instead. They literally had one job...

Here you must have missed this 119 page article to read on exiting EU from UKIP.... :eh:


"The purpose of this document is not to restate the arguments for Britain’s exit from the
European Union, that case was made and won on 23rd June 2016.
The purpose of this document is to describe how HM Government and Parliament
could and should fully implement the Referendum decision and leave the European
Union as quickly and completely as possible: thereby restoring Britain’s status as a
sovereign, independent, self-governing nation.
The format of this document is to describe what HM Government needs to do in order to
achieve a speedy and complete withdrawal from the European Union. It also describes the
most important areas of policy now controlled by the EU, and summarises the relevant
background to each one. Some areas, such as trade and immigration, have been covered here
in more detail than others because of their importance or complexity..."

Constantine
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Re: another pointless bridge?

Post by Constantine » Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:40 pm

Chadwick wrote:....
Pakefields Law.
Not aware of that one. :)

Is it a variant of Godwin's law? As in all internet debates will degenerate into a slanging match about some aspect of Brexit?

Boro Boy
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Re: another pointless bridge?

Post by Boro Boy » Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:41 pm

Boro Boy wrote:
Chadwick wrote: * UKIP, the ERG, and the various Leave campaigns had been arguing for leaving for much longer, but incredibly hadn't bothered to work out any plan or concept of how to leave or what we would do instead. They literally had one job...

Here you must have missed this 119 page article to read on exiting EU from UKIP.... :eh:

See: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BYEEr6 ... SltsB/view

"The purpose of this document is not to restate the arguments for Britain’s exit from the
European Union, that case was made and won on 23rd June 2016.
The purpose of this document is to describe how HM Government and Parliament
could and should fully implement the Referendum decision and leave the European
Union as quickly and completely as possible: thereby restoring Britain’s status as a
sovereign, independent, self-governing nation.
The format of this document is to describe what HM Government needs to do in order to
achieve a speedy and complete withdrawal from the European Union. It also describes the
most important areas of policy now controlled by the EU, and summarises the relevant
background..."

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Re: another pointless bridge?

Post by gle1975 » Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:53 pm

There are lots of models for leaving the EU such as the Norway/Iceland EEA one, the Swiss one where they are not in the EEA but have lots of different agreements, one like the Canada CETA one or just telling the EU to bugger off and doing something based on WTO rules. But because there has been lots of EU integration (without consent - no referendum on Maastricht, Lisbon etc) it's complicated to leave.

You just have to pick one!
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Boro Boy
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Re: another pointless bridge?

Post by Boro Boy » Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:58 pm

gle1975 wrote:There are lots of models for leaving the EU such as the Norway/Iceland EEA one, the Swiss one where they are not in the EEA but have lots of different agreements, one like the Canada CETA one or just telling the EU to bugger off and doing something based on WTO rules. But because there has been lots of EU integration (without consent - no referendum on Maastricht, Lisbon etc) it's complicated to leave.

You just have to pick one!

...and not have one imposed by the EU when it is they who stand to benefit the most and are in more need of "a deal" than we are. There will be lots of brinkmanship me thinks... :think:

William Joseph1
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Re: another pointless bridge?

Post by William Joseph1 » Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:17 pm

Boro Boy wrote:
gle1975 wrote:There are lots of models for leaving the EU such as the Norway/Iceland EEA one, the Swiss one where they are not in the EEA but have lots of different agreements, one like the Canada CETA one or just telling the EU to bugger off and doing something based on WTO rules. But because there has been lots of EU integration (without consent - no referendum on Maastricht, Lisbon etc) it's complicated to leave.

You just have to pick one!

...and not have one imposed by the EU when it is they who stand to benefit the most and are in more need of "a deal" than we are. There will be lots of brinkmanship me thinks... :think:
You do spout a load of rubbish! Nothing is being imposed by anyone. That is what negotiation is all about and the threat of leaving without a deal.
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Re: another pointless bridge?

Post by Boro Boy » Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:28 pm

William Joseph1 wrote:
Boro Boy wrote:
gle1975 wrote:There are lots of models for leaving the EU such as the Norway/Iceland EEA one, the Swiss one where they are not in the EEA but have lots of different agreements, one like the Canada CETA one or just telling the EU to bugger off and doing something based on WTO rules. But because there has been lots of EU integration (without consent - no referendum on Maastricht, Lisbon etc) it's complicated to leave.

You just have to pick one!

...and not have one imposed by the EU when it is they who stand to benefit the most and are in more need of "a deal" than we are. There will be lots of brinkmanship me thinks... :think:
You do spout a load of rubbish! Nothing is being imposed by anyone. That is what negotiation is all about and the threat of leaving without a deal.

Don't get personal - this is not negotiations especially if its only one way. Negotiation should be a win win for both sides.

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Re: another pointless bridge?

Post by macliam » Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:56 pm

Total rubbish and repeated far too often - in many cases negotiation is to make the impact on the "loser" less bad. Negotiating a treaty at the end of a war ..... does the loser win something? Should they? The only thing they "win" is making the outcome less bad than it would be without a treaty. Likewise Brexit - the UK decided to leave and now has the problem of ensuring that they still have the basic agreements in place so that life continues..... the EU made no such decision and its infrastructure will not change. Over and above that, the UK has been convinced they can cut a deal with the EU to keep all the bits they need but lose the bits they don't like. This has been based on fallacies like "they need us more than we need them"..... if they did, they would be the ones chasing a deal.

The EU has said that it wants a deal and realises the dangers posed by the UK crashing out - but at the same time they will not compromise the basic tenets of the single market and customs union. They said very early on that there were red lines and that they will not allow "cherry picking", but the UK has spent 2 years trying to find fancy ways to do exactly that - and failed. Now the new lie is that its all the EUs fault......
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