This is the truth about Brexit if you are not British

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pabenny
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Re: This is the truth about Brexit if you are not British

Post by pabenny » Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:52 am

If we're being picky, it's also not accurate to say that "A tiny majority of the population voted to leave".

Our electoral processes do not compel people to vote, nor is there an option to explicitly register an abstention. So we have to conclude that those who do not vote were either undecided or did not care enough to register their preference (with a few who were unable to get to the polling station on the day).

So, yes, the country did vote to leave the EU – although by a narrow margin and arguably on the basis of falsehoods and fantasy.
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Re: This is the truth about Brexit if you are not British

Post by Boro Boy » Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:14 am

pabenny wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:52 am
If we're being picky, it's also not accurate to say that "A tiny majority of the population voted to leave".

Our electoral processes do not compel people to vote, nor is there an option to explicitly register an abstention. So we have to conclude that those who do not vote were either undecided or did not care enough to register their preference (with a few who were unable to get to the polling station on the day).

So, yes, the country did vote to leave the EU – although by a narrow margin and arguably on the basis of falsehoods and fantasy.
Even your more accurate explanation is wrong. My vote wasn't guided by "falsehoods" which I find patronising that you suggest, however I accept that may have occurred for some but if this happened it occurred to both sides of the voting spectrum not just one side and it is wrong to say otherwise with any bias to one side or the other...
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Re: This is the truth about Brexit if you are not British

Post by blythburgh » Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:30 am

Boro Boy wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:14 am
pabenny wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:52 am
If we're being picky, it's also not accurate to say that "A tiny majority of the population voted to leave".

Our electoral processes do not compel people to vote, nor is there an option to explicitly register an abstention. So we have to conclude that those who do not vote were either undecided or did not care enough to register their preference (with a few who were unable to get to the polling station on the day).

So, yes, the country did vote to leave the EU – although by a narrow margin and arguably on the basis of falsehoods and fantasy.
Even your more accurate explanation is wrong. My vote wasn't guided by "falsehoods" which I find patronising that you suggest, however I accept that may have occurred for some but if this happened it occurred to both sides of the voting spectrum not just one side and it is wrong to say otherwise with any bias to one side or the other...
Rubbish, I hear time and time again people said they voted leave because of the NHS lies on the bus. That was the biggest and most influential lie of the referendum campaign. Even Nigel Farage says that should not have been on the bus.
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Re: This is the truth about Brexit if you are not British

Post by pabenny » Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:13 am

Boro Boy wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:14 am
Even your more accurate explanation is wrong. My vote wasn't guided by "falsehoods" which I find patronising that you suggest, however I accept that may have occurred for some but if this happened it occurred to both sides of the voting spectrum not just one side and it is wrong to say otherwise with any bias to one side or the other...
I'm sorry that you feel patronised. I wouldn't dream of suggesting that I know how you (or anyone else) decided how to vote.

Falsehood, well untruths on the remain side had more to do with the negative consequences of a leave vote (project fear, if you like), rather than making promises which have not been kept.

On the Leave side, for example:
- £350m a week for the NHS - that has been demonstrated again and again to be untrue.
- Liam Fox, as recently as October 2017 stating that other trade deals would be there on B-day (there are currently 6 ready, including such economically important states as the Palestinian Authority)

But perhaps the biggest falsehood of all is that negotiating Brexit would be easy. The current impasse in Parliament shows that it’s not easy, it’s not straightforward. Macliam’s description of the impact on his wife shows that even minor things are complicated. And like so much of the detail, it has nothing to with this party or that party being ‘obstructive’. It’s just complicated
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Re: This is the truth about Brexit if you are not British

Post by macliam » Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:09 pm

pabenny wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:46 am
macliam wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:58 pm
Why do you think my wife has that stamp? It's because Portuguese citizens were NOT accepted as EU citizens for UK immigration purposes at that time, so she gained entry and indefinite leave to remain in the same way that any other non-UK person would. Prior to this she was in the UK on a "fiancee" visa supplied by the British Embassy in Lisbon, whereas later EU entrants, Portuguese or otherwise, had no need to apply for a visa or for indefinite leave to remain. So being in or out of the EU should not, retrospectively, affect her........any more than all UK citizens should be forced to reapply for a "blue" passport on exit.
Freedom of movement and residence was a part of the Maastricht treaty in 1992. So the indefinite leave stamp would have been required by any non-UK person in 1989.
and? As WJ said "When is indefinite not indefinite?"......... it's a retrospective ruling (and not the first). The ex-mayor of Ipswich, a danish citizen, resident in the UK since she married in 1979, was refused British citizenship (after paying well over £1000 for the application) because she did not have "a permanent residency card", which "has been obligatory since November 2016". Except nobody told her, or us, or anyone else I know!! :roll:

It actually seems that this card is only necessary for EEA citizens IF they intend to apply for citizenship..... so it's odd that it wasn't mentioned to her when she applied, rather than being used as a reason to reject her application! Jobsworth or what?!!
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Re: This is the truth about Brexit if you are not British

Post by Chadwick » Sat Feb 23, 2019 6:34 pm

macliam wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:59 am
Why should she now be forced to apply for British Citizenship, which is extortionately expensive and by no means certain and/or jump through new hoops in order to "prove" her right to enter the UK?
Because we voted to leave the EU, and one consequence is that your wife's stamp is worth as much as the German Deutshmarks and Austrian Schillings I have in my souvenir-old-holiday-money pot.

No, it's not right or fair, but that didn't bother the voting population.
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Re: This is the truth about Brexit if you are not British

Post by William Joseph1 » Sat Feb 23, 2019 6:39 pm

My partner before he became a British Citizen had the self same stamp in his Malaysian passport. I would expect any interpretation of the word indefinite to mean just that, with no regard to a country or place of origin. Or even whether the Great British Public have a vote to change the rules. I do not expect them to be backdated.
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Re: This is the truth about Brexit if you are not British

Post by macliam » Sat Feb 23, 2019 7:30 pm

Chadwick wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 6:34 pm
macliam wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:59 am
Why should she now be forced to apply for British Citizenship, which is extortionately expensive and by no means certain and/or jump through new hoops in order to "prove" her right to enter the UK?
Because we voted to leave the EU, and one consequence is that your wife's stamp is worth as much as the German Deutshmarks and Austrian Schillings I have in my souvenir-old-holiday-money pot.

No, it's not right or fair, but that didn't bother the voting population.
What a load of garbage! What part of "nothing to do with the EU" do you not understand? Bad enough that some Brits seem to think they should walk away from a club and keep all the benefits, worse if they don't even honour their own rules. It really doesn't bode well for future relationships, does it.... :roll:

...and this has NOTHING to do with the people who voted - this is a decision of the British government.
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Re: This is the truth about Brexit if you are not British

Post by Chadwick » Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:59 pm

macliam wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 7:30 pm
Chadwick wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 6:34 pm
macliam wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:59 am
Why should she now be forced to apply for British Citizenship, which is extortionately expensive and by no means certain and/or jump through new hoops in order to "prove" her right to enter the UK?
Because we voted to leave the EU, and one consequence is that your wife's stamp is worth as much as the German Deutshmarks and Austrian Schillings I have in my souvenir-old-holiday-money pot.

No, it's not right or fair, but that didn't bother the voting population.
What a load of garbage! What part of "nothing to do with the EU" do you not understand? Bad enough that some Brits seem to think they should walk away from a club and keep all the benefits, worse if they don't even honour their own rules. It really doesn't bode well for future relationships, does it.... :roll:

...and this has NOTHING to do with the people who voted - this is a decision of the British government.
My mistake. I thought this was a thread about Brexit.
For what it's worth, I'm on your side.
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Re: This is the truth about Brexit if you are not British

Post by pabenny » Sun Feb 24, 2019 8:39 am

From what I've read above, Mrs Macliam was granted the right to remain in the UK indefinitely in around 1989. What appears to be changing is how that is formally documented - a little like the way in which passports, driving licenses and other official documents must be renewed from time to time.

I'm happy to be corrected on this, but I don't see anything that suggests that the right to remain could be revoked. Of course there is the possibility that an applicant cannot produce sufficient evidence of their right to remain - as has happened to the Windrush people.

I agree that the need to renew status is onerous. It's the consequence of a years-long hostile climate towards 'bad' immigrants (people of colour/people who are poor/people who speak English badly). I'm put in mind of the poem by Martin Niemoeller about the rise of the Nazis:
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
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