IS Teenager Shaminna Begum to lose British Citizenship

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Boro Boy
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Re: IS Teenager Shaminna Begum to lose British Citizenship

Post by Boro Boy » Sat Feb 23 2019 9:12pm

Chadwick wrote:
Sat Feb 23 2019 6:21pm
Boro Boy wrote:
Sat Feb 23 2019 12:19pm
What sort of message would your view send out to future IS members and their supporters? We cannot become a soft touch or we will suffer dramatically as a result. There should be a clear black and white message, expect the full strength of the law if you associate yourself with these murderers! End of story.
That would indeed be a clear black and white message to show what a nasty vindictive society we are, and show them why they should rise against us and make whatever sacrifices are necessary to overthrow our cruel laws. Allah will forgive them, but the British won't.

Or we could live by our own standards, not theirs.
How different you may sound if something happended to a member of your family at the hands of IS...? My suggestions were merely to reduce the possibility of anything vile happening to you or your family or indeed mine...

Chadwick
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Re: IS Teenager Shaminna Begum to lose British Citizenship

Post by Chadwick » Sat Feb 23 2019 10:07pm

Boro Boy wrote:
Sat Feb 23 2019 9:12pm
Chadwick wrote:
Sat Feb 23 2019 6:21pm
Boro Boy wrote:
Sat Feb 23 2019 12:19pm
What sort of message would your view send out to future IS members and their supporters? We cannot become a soft touch or we will suffer dramatically as a result. There should be a clear black and white message, expect the full strength of the law if you associate yourself with these murderers! End of story.
That would indeed be a clear black and white message to show what a nasty vindictive society we are, and show them why they should rise against us and make whatever sacrifices are necessary to overthrow our cruel laws. Allah will forgive them, but the British won't.

Or we could live by our own standards, not theirs.
How different you may sound if something happended to a member of your family at the hands of IS...? My suggestions were merely to reduce the possibility of anything vile happening to you or your family or indeed mine...
Perhaps we should chop her hands off then, to reduce the possibility of anything vile happening?

You seem to be arguing that she is guilty until proven innocent. This country has a strong tradition of doing the opposite. If there is a case against her, then indeed she should be tried. I would like to think a greater success would be for us to change her mindset and convince her that the UK is on her side, and ISIS is not.
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Re: IS Teenager Shaminna Begum to lose British Citizenship

Post by Derbiean » Sat Feb 23 2019 10:34pm

Chadwick wrote:
Sat Feb 23 2019 10:07pm
Boro Boy wrote:
Sat Feb 23 2019 9:12pm
Chadwick wrote:
Sat Feb 23 2019 6:21pm


That would indeed be a clear black and white message to show what a nasty vindictive society we are, and show them why they should rise against us and make whatever sacrifices are necessary to overthrow our cruel laws. Allah will forgive them, but the British won't.

Or we could live by our own standards, not theirs.
How different you may sound if something happended to a member of your family at the hands of IS...? My suggestions were merely to reduce the possibility of anything vile happening to you or your family or indeed mine...
Perhaps we should chop her hands off then, to reduce the possibility of anything vile happening?

You seem to be arguing that she is guilty until proven innocent. This country has a strong tradition of doing the opposite. If there is a case against her, then indeed she should be tried. I would like to think a greater success would be for us to change her mindset and convince her that the UK is on her side, and ISIS is not.
If we're going to go medieval on her behind then we should go for the head. Guaranteed result.
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Re: IS Teenager Shaminna Begum to lose British Citizenship

Post by Boro Boy » Sat Feb 23 2019 11:41pm

Chadwick wrote:
Sat Feb 23 2019 10:07pm
Boro Boy wrote:
Sat Feb 23 2019 9:12pm
Chadwick wrote:
Sat Feb 23 2019 6:21pm


That would indeed be a clear black and white message to show what a nasty vindictive society we are, and show them why they should rise against us and make whatever sacrifices are necessary to overthrow our cruel laws. Allah will forgive them, but the British won't.

Or we could live by our own standards, not theirs.
How different you may sound if something happended to a member of your family at the hands of IS...? My suggestions were merely to reduce the possibility of anything vile happening to you or your family or indeed mine...
Perhaps we should chop her hands off then, to reduce the possibility of anything vile happening?

You seem to be arguing that she is guilty until proven innocent. This country has a strong tradition of doing the opposite. If there is a case against her, then indeed she should be tried. I would like to think a greater success would be for us to change her mindset and convince her that the UK is on her side, and ISIS is not.
Read the thread - I have suggested a potential legal route via an international court. However there is guilt by association to be considered...

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Re: IS Teenager Shaminna Begum to lose British Citizenship

Post by macliam » Sun Feb 24 2019 12:31am

Boro Boy wrote:
Sat Feb 23 2019 11:41pm
Read the thread - I have suggested a potential legal route via an international court. However there is guilt by association to be considered...
The idea of an international tribunal was suggested as soon as the number of IS captives started to rise, so it is not original. Further, this woulld NOT be to "save" the UK and other states from facing up to their responsibilities, but to ensure some equality of treatment across the various legal systems. However, as previously stated, such an international court would only try cases where war crimes had been committed, not rank and file membership of a proscried organization - and certainly not non-combatants - so there is no relevance to this case.

Secondly, "guilt by association" is meaningless under law - a person must be charged with a recognised crime and tried. Otherwise you become a vigilante - like Liam Neeson, out to punish someone because of what someone else did....

Thirdly, the issue at hand here is that the refugee camp where Shamima Begum is held is controlled by Kurdish forces, who are NOT representatives of any state recognised by the international community or bound by international law and who are likely to come under attack both from the Assad regime and the Turks. Abandoning these people may result in their deaths or see them released to continue their activities elsewhere. This is not justice, it is merely a denial of responsibility.
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Re: IS Teenager Shaminna Begum to lose British Citizenship

Post by Boro Boy » Sun Feb 24 2019 12:10pm

...which goes a long way in proving, there is no "cure" to Fanatical Murderous Ideology...!

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Re: IS Teenager Shaminna Begum to lose British Citizenship

Post by macliam » Sun Feb 24 2019 4:21pm

Boro Boy wrote:
Sun Feb 24 2019 12:10pm
...which goes a long way in proving, there is no "cure" to Fanatical Murderous Ideology...!
And, apart from being a total non-sequitur, it is also irrelevant...... unless you can prove that she actually committed or actively supported a given murder. What you appear to suggest is the same as holding all Germans responsible for the holocaust or all Japanese responsible for the rape of Nanjing...... or all Britons responsible for the slave trade.

This apart from the fact that she is still a teenager. Maybe you'd be better off asking yourself why 8 girls from the same school either travelled to the caliphate or were caught whilst doing so.... and how many others were just a touch away from doing the same thing. But no, let's have a hissy fit, throw responsibility in the bin and misuse the UKs power to summarily punish her without the need for a trial......
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Re: IS Teenager Shaminna Begum to lose British Citizenship

Post by Richard Frost » Sun Feb 24 2019 5:26pm

I would have thought that we (The People of the UK) Should be demanding from those in authority to know why so many people have become radicalised. Why so many of our younger generation have been let down by those in authority, Schools, Councils , Police, Social workers and Government. It is a National disgrace that we have allowed and continue to allow it to happen. Far better to deal with the cause I would have thought rather than the effect. Slightly off Topic but knife crime goes along the same lines.

It is a disgrace that anyone even considers removing citizenship from someone. It is the fault of those in authority and collectively the citizenship that these people are turning out the way they are. The attitude of some posters on here just makes that worse and encourages this radical behaviour.

Cause and effect
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Re: IS Teenager Shaminna Begum to lose British Citizenship

Post by Derbiean » Sun Feb 24 2019 6:53pm

William Joseph1 wrote:
Sun Feb 24 2019 5:26pm
I would have thought that we (The People of the UK) Should be demanding from those in authority to know why so many people have become radicalised. Why so many of our younger generation have been let down by those in authority, Schools, Councils , Police, Social workers and Government. It is a National disgrace that we have allowed and continue to allow it to happen. Far better to deal with the cause I would have thought rather than the effect. Slightly off Topic but knife crime goes along the same lines.

It is a disgrace that anyone even considers removing citizenship from someone. It is the fault of those in authority and collectively the citizenship that these people are turning out the way they are. The attitude of some posters on here just makes that worse and encourages this radical behaviour.

Cause and effect
I reject the notion that citizenship is collectively responsible for an individual's actions and it is perhaps the reason people are turning out in a certain way because they can always blame someone else for their behaviour. The attitude of some posters on here? extreme naivety.
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Re: IS Teenager Shaminna Begum to lose British Citizenship

Post by Richard Frost » Sun Feb 24 2019 7:03pm

Citizens elect their representatives who create and carry out policy. If society is not right and is going in the "wrong" direction then citizens have a duty to examine their consciences and demand that those in authority change direction if they fail to. Then it is citizens who have the to power to change them at the ballot box.

In our so called democracy, It is citizens who are supposed to be calling the shots by electing the people we want to represent us.
Cause and effect.

You like I am are entitled to our opinions and I reject the notion entirely that I am in some way naive. If you can't understand how democracy is supposed to work, then it is you my friend whom has a degree of naivety.
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