Brexit Bounces

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blythburgh
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Re: Brexit Bounces

Post by blythburgh » Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:36 am

Derbiean wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:17 pm
Common sense dictates we cancel brexit as no deal can be agreed by everyone and crashing out with no deal would be catastrophic for us* and the overwhelming majority of economic forecasts makes us worse off in all circumstances of leaving the EU, not to mention the civil service is crippled by internal rivalries and no clear direction from the government.

*For the working and middle class, the upper toffs will make a killing.
I would be furious if Brexit is cancelled unless there is a People's Vote and I am wrong and Remain gets a majority.
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pabenny
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Re: Brexit Bounces

Post by pabenny » Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:05 am

The whole situation is extraordinary: the government cannot pass its own motion to enact a manifesto commitment. They don’t even have the excuse that it is a matter of conscience such as, say same-sex marriage.

This has gone way beyond questions of leave or remain. The government are being obstructed by a minority within their own party who do not like the way their manifesto commitment is being enacted. Given their dogmatic refusal to support their leader (who survived a leadership challenge last year), the ERG and fellow travellers should be considering their position* within their party. (* ie resigning).
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Re: Brexit Bounces

Post by macliam » Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:39 am

pabenny wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:05 am
The whole situation is extraordinary: the government cannot pass its own motion to enact a manifesto commitment. They don’t even have the excuse that it is a matter of conscience such as, say same-sex marriage.

This has gone way beyond questions of leave or remain. The government are being obstructed by a minority within their own party who do not like the way their manifesto commitment is being enacted. Given their dogmatic refusal to support their leader (who survived a leadership challenge last year), the ERG and fellow travellers should be considering their position* within their party. (* ie resigning).
No, they should be ejected - except, of course, that would cripple the Tory party..... and that's the root cause of all this - it's far more important to the Tories that they remain in power than that the country is trashed.
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Derbiean
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Re: Brexit Bounces

Post by Derbiean » Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:54 am

blythburgh wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:36 am
Derbiean wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:17 pm
Common sense dictates we cancel brexit as no deal can be agreed by everyone and crashing out with no deal would be catastrophic for us* and the overwhelming majority of economic forecasts makes us worse off in all circumstances of leaving the EU, not to mention the civil service is crippled by internal rivalries and no clear direction from the government.

*For the working and middle class, the upper toffs will make a killing.
I would be furious if Brexit is cancelled unless there is a People's Vote and I am wrong and Remain gets a majority.
But surely its clear by now that this government cannot get a brexit that is good for the country? Its one thing to have fallen for the lies of the leave campaign but to continue on a path that only leads to things being worse off is insanity if we remain what changes? Little to nothing.
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Re: Brexit Bounces

Post by macliam » Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:02 pm

Derbiean wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:17 pm
Common sense dictates we cancel brexit as no deal can be agreed by everyone and crashing out with no deal would be catastrophic for us* and the overwhelming majority of economic forecasts makes us worse off in all circumstances of leaving the EU, not to mention the civil service is crippled by internal rivalries and no clear direction from the government.

*For the working and middle class, the upper toffs will make a killing.
But there IS overall agreement on what Westminster and "the people" want..... it's just slightly different and not something they'll admit to. They both want all the advantages they have now, none of the disadvantages and to be "in control". The UK (and mainly England) doesn't like being in a club they don't control and would far rather that the EU was like the Union, a false federation, centred on Westminster, where the concerns and/or thoughts of the other constituent states can be ignored if they threaten Westminster's advantage. The difference is that joe public neither knows nor cares about the detail, they just want it, NOW!. The politicians know it's impossible to deliver......

The EU have been wise to this from the beginning, they know exactly what they do and don't want - and said so at the outset. What is criticised here as intransigence is actually consistency, whereas successive wheeler-dealer UK "negotiators" have tried to duck and dodge - and presumed that the EU will buckle. But now, at the end-game, the EU are both frustrated and exasperated at the UKs inability to actually agree a gameplan, let alone carry it out.

Whatever the outcome, the UK has been shattered internally and has lost credibility through this disaster - and anyone who thinks there are sunny uplands to come via trade deals needs to consider who would be negotiating those deals..... the same people who have done so well with Brexit. Happy days!
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Re: Brexit Bounces

Post by pabenny » Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:28 pm

macliam wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:02 pm
...joe public neither knows nor cares about the detail, they just want it, NOW!. The politicians know it's impossible to deliver
...
Yet we still have politicians and newspapers that refuse to acknowledge that the whole thing is hugely complex, involves compromises and may still be impossible. The harder line Brexiteers continue to shout no from the sidelines, forget their unrealistic campaign claims, wave away real practical difficulties and don't care about the immediate impact of their dogma on jobs and livelihoods.
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Re: Brexit Bounces

Post by macliam » Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:09 pm

Yes, but you may be confusing what they say with what they actually think, or the reason they are saying it. A lot of people see Brexit as an opportunity to make money - Farage is suddenly much richer than he was before! Others see the opportunity in chaos to turn it to their advantage. Some are genuinely opposed to the EU - but for a wide variety of reasons. The genie is out of the lamp, the UKs relationship with its partners is soured, it looks divided and incompetent and the pain will be felt by those least able to bear it. Chaos wins.
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Re: Brexit Bounces

Post by AAAlphaThunder » Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:19 pm

If only May didn't call that election.
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Re: Brexit Bounces

Post by expressman33 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:30 pm

MPs vote against second Brexit referendum by majority of 249

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/li ... itics-live
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Re: Brexit Bounces

Post by William Joseph1 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:46 pm

So they have now voted to ask for an extension to Brexit. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47576813

It is unsure how long Mrs May will ask for, or for how long the EU27 will be willing to give (if anything)

Apparently she is likely to try and bring her "Meaningful vote" back to the commons sometime next week and before she asks for the extension.
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