Ukraine - where's the truth?

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Ukraine - where's the truth?

Post by macliam » Fri Feb 18 2022 2:22pm

https://consortiumnews.com/2022/02/17/w ... ropaganda/

A brilliant article by John Pilger, which deserves wider publication.

I note that the US spokesman in the video follows the same playbook as out own dear ministers, presenting opinion as fact and building further opinion on that opinion. A more cynical person mught conclude they are telling lies and then building further lies upon those lies. Of course, this could never happen.... nobody would ever claim untruths as a means to progess war, would they?? :roll:

Truth or lie, who's to say..... there is propoganda on both sides....

What can we conclude? :eh:

- Ukraine is not as "nice" as we're told
- Russia is not as "evil" as made out
- the USA is not to be trusted
- and Liz Truss is stupid.

....................................Anything new there? :shifty:
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Re: Ukraine - where's the truth?

Post by blythburgh » Fri Feb 18 2022 5:23pm

Er nothing new. But very worrying the way they are talking about genocide and evacuating "Russians" from the part of Ukraine where there has been a civil war for the last 8 years.

I can see Crimea part two coming
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Re: Ukraine - where's the truth?

Post by macliam » Sat Feb 19 2022 2:00pm

Propaganda is very much at play here - on both sides. However, we have been conditioned to view Putin as the big bad wolf (or is that bear?) - but this does feel a bit like a continuation of "America saving the world" now that Iraq and Afghanistan have been abandoned.

Putin likes to show himself as the tough guy at home and Russia has continued its historical interference in neighbouring states. In the absence of the financial and commercial levers of power available to the USA , and due to a Russian preference for direct action, such interference has tended to be military as well as diplomatic. However, such states tend to have large ethnic-Russian or Russian-speaking populations and that makes the situation somewhat different to US extra-territorial incursions over the past century and more.

To look from the "other" side, the end of the Soviet era saw the dismantlement not only of the USSR and its expanded empire, but also of the historic Russian heartlands - Ukraine and Belarus in particular - remembering that Ukraine had not seen any form of independence from Russian rule since the C18th and was never a unified territory within its current borders. So, there are those in Russia (Putin amongst them) who regret this loss of "Russian" territory and influence and the increased fragmentation. This plays into a fundamental Russian mindset that it is surrounded by malign enemies - a mindset that stretches back to Czarist times and has historical evidence to support it. This "regret" isn't really difficult to understand - imagine the USA being split into countries that reflect historical influence back to that same period.... Alaska going back to Russia, other tracts going back to France or Spain and the rest, beyond the original 13 states of the Continental congress being "up for grabs". Imagine the chagrin of seeing this applauded and encouraged by old "enemies". Indeed, look at the continued influence of the imperial mindset on the British worldview and recent events in Europe.

On the NATO side, the organization has been under the cosh for the last few years and desperately needs to reinforce its relevance. Firstly, Trump's lukewarm support and the very limited demand for increased military spending by European partners endangered the organization's coherence if not its very existence; Then there is the "danger" of greater European reliance on Russian oil and gas, particularly with Nord Stream 2 due to come online (against American wishes); Then there are changes to the political atmosphere, the continued refusal of Finland to join the organization and other "frontier" countries like Poland and Hungary not "toeing the line" - plus the potentially huge carrot of Ukraine siding with NATO. Given the limited relevance of NATO in other areas of "concern" (the Balkans, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.) and diminishing US influence over Europe, nothing could encourage a rebuilding of the NATO alliance more than the threat of aggression by Russia.

In the middle is Ukraine, a "new" state, desperately struggling for coherence amongst territory and peoples who have little historical unity. A state that, like its neighbour to the north, remained a pro-Russian satellite in post-Soviet years until the Orange revolution in 2004.... after which it became a key geopolitical prize. The 2013 Maidan protests saw this escalate as the right-wing and ultranationalists gained influence - alienating a Russia who not only lost its buffer to NATO, but also saw the pendulum swing further in favour of anti-Russian political forces - and this underpins the ongoing hostilities of the past decade. Again, before buying into the propaganda of either side, imagine the mindset of people in Eastern Ukraine, forced to choose between their historical, linguistic and familial connections to Russia and loyalty to a state that seems to be sidelining them in favour of "foreign" influences and the desire to look westwards.

So basically, both "major powers" have irons in the fire here..... and there are few "innocents" apart from those who will be impacted by yet another wave of disruption, if not actually becoming victims of war. Perhaps it's worth reigning in jingoistic language and stoking the fire of conflict, in favour of considering the real situation for the people directly involved - unlike what happened in Iraq or Afghanistan.
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Re: Ukraine - where's the truth?

Post by macliam » Wed Mar 02 2022 12:51pm

I'm amazed that we seem to be ignoring the elephant now in the room. Even those who are only interested in finance must see the impact of current issues.

Regardless of any justifications for Russian concern over Ukraine, the invasion of a sovereign territory - and a territory whose independence was guaranteed when it signed away its nuclear weapons - is absolutely unforgiveable.

I support the people of Ukraine, because, despite their disparate backgrounds and internal division, they have welded themselves into a nation - a baptism of blood. Putin claims that Ukraine is a Russian concept, he is wrong - Ukraine is free of his mind control and has put up two fingers to his threats. Слава Україні!, Slava Ukraini!, Glory to Ukraine!

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Re: Ukraine - where's the truth?

Post by macliam » Tue Apr 26 2022 8:41pm

A "translation" of Siúil a Rún (Walk My Love) into Ukrainian, to reflect the current conflict.
Beautifully done, maith tú!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_mJyzE09oQ
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Re: Ukraine - where's the truth?

Post by macliam » Tue Jun 14 2022 4:39pm

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Re: Ukraine - where's the truth?

Post by macliam » Thu Feb 23 2023 4:13pm

We seem to have ignored this, but I thought the first anniversary of Putin's invasion mught be the right time to revisit..... and although there's a day to go, I liked this
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Led By Donkeys wrote:Tomorrow is the first anniversary of Putin's imperialist invasion of Ukraine, an independent state and a people with every right to self-determination. The existence of a massive Ukrainian flag outside his embassy in London will serve to remind him of that."
Outside the Russian Embassy, London.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-64743138

.... and before anyone has a pop, the group says that the non-toxic, solvent-free and fast-dry edible paint was washable and designed for road art.
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Re: Ukraine - where's the truth?

Post by Richard Frost » Thu Feb 23 2023 5:39pm

I do not suppose for a moment it will make any impression on Putin or his cronies. Seems all a bit pointless and just creates frustration on the people caught up in the subsequent traffic jams.
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Re: Ukraine - where's the truth?

Post by macliam » Thu Feb 23 2023 6:07pm

Oh dear, what a shame, a slight delay might be better than a cruise missile, eh?

Maybe we should all say nothing, as Putin is unlikely to listen.............
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Re: Ukraine - where's the truth?

Post by Richard Frost » Thu Feb 23 2023 6:11pm

Not only is he unlikely to listen, but I doubt he would be even aware of it. As I said all a bit pointless. "Gesture Politics"

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