Migration - the positive view

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macliam
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Migration - the positive view

Post by macliam » Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:36 pm

With so much negativity about migration - in a country where migration has been a constant throughout history - I found this article uplifting.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/in-pictures-38327867

For me, the most negative of the interviews is with the Irish guy, but he reflects many others - including myself - perhaps because he has seen the least change, so the "costs" seem greater. Home will always be home, but that doesn't mean you don't respect the country that feeds you and work to play your part in the wider community.

Nobody is saying "we came for the handouts and to get free medical treatment" - what they are saying is how they have found safety and acceptance and a way to build their lives, but not to forget where they came from. Of course, there will be others who are here to exploit the system, as there are those who are home-grown and do the same, but the focus should be on preventing this exploitation, not closing the door to the very people who have made Britain what it is today.

Romans, Anglo-Saxons, Vikings, Normans, Dutch, Huguenots, Jews, Asians and Afro-Caribbeans ..... as well as the closer migrations from Ireland and within the home nations - each have made their mark, each wave was resisted by those who said they were "foreign" and would change the country, each faced discrimination, each has been absorbed within the fabric of society.

Migration should be a source of pride, not regret.
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Re: Migration - the positive view

Post by Pandora » Sun Dec 18, 2016 1:16 pm

macliam wrote:... each has been absorbed within the fabric of society.
..
I'm not sure that you can claim that the Anglo-Saxons were "absorbed within the fabric of society". I think it would be more accurate to say that they took over the country and then claimed it was theirs.
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Re: Migration - the positive view

Post by Derbiean » Sun Dec 18, 2016 1:33 pm

Always amuses when I come across the claims that multiculturalism is destroying Britain's identity, good god multiculturalism IS a part of the identity of Britain, talk about not knowing the history of your own country :problem:

One of the wildest opinions i heard tho was "if you're not descended from a Anglo-Saxon bloodline you're not truly English" I nearly had an aneurysm arguing with that guy :wtf:
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Re: Migration - the positive view

Post by macliam » Sun Dec 18, 2016 4:11 pm

Pandora wrote:
macliam wrote:... each has been absorbed within the fabric of society.
..
I'm not sure that you can claim that the Anglo-Saxons were "absorbed within the fabric of society". I think it would be more accurate to say that they took over the country and then claimed it was theirs.
.........As did the Romans, as did the Vikings (in parts), as did the Normans - but the point is that people in Britain are NOT Romans, nor are they Vikings, nor are they Normans - and nor are they Anglo-Saxons. I'm also pretty sure that, as with any such migration, the second or third generation of the Anglo- Saxons who settled in Britain were quite distinct from those that remained in their "old" country. So, I do claim that they were "absorbed" into the fabric of British society..... given that British society evolved to include them.

It is still evolving....
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Re: Migration - the positive view

Post by expressman33 » Sun Dec 18, 2016 4:19 pm

We're a great big Melting Pot - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HHT_V294Co
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Re: Migration - the positive view

Post by macliam » Sun Dec 18, 2016 5:59 pm

expressman33 wrote:We're a great big Melting Pot - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HHT_V294Co
Sadly, that song itself is now seen as unacceptable, due to the words used. I hate people who look into the past through today's glasses - they usually miss the point. You might not use the same words now, but it's the meaning that counts. I came of age in the Two-Tone period, a time of hope that people could mix as well as music, but sadly it's still just a hope.

But it's not "race" per se that's the problem - it's difference, be that colour, or faith or way of being. Nobody picks on a Viking, or a Norman or a Huguenot descendant these days, because you'd be hard-pressed to distinguish them - but anyone of a different colour, or who acts differently ..... that's another matter. In fact, where is the difference between someone coming from Manchester to London to take a job, as opposed to someone coming from Bucharest ..... someone in London still "loses out" on a job .... so maybe all internal movement should be banned too!!

I count myself very lucky in the way my life panned out - I had opportunities my parents never had and took advantage of them. But one thing that helped to define me early on was the exposure I had to people who spoke different languages and had different cultures - the schooling through Irish, my move to England, my Polish and Italian friends at college whose parents spoke their own languages at home, my travels through Europe and Morocco in my early 20's, my work colleagues from every corner of the globe and my marriage to someone who never learned English at school and whose family still don't - for those experiences I thank my lucky stars.
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Re: Migration - the positive view

Post by Pandora » Mon Dec 19, 2016 5:27 am

macliam wrote:
Pandora wrote:
macliam wrote:... each has been absorbed within the fabric of society.
..
I'm not sure that you can claim that the Anglo-Saxons were "absorbed within the fabric of society". I think it would be more accurate to say that they took over the country and then claimed it was theirs.
.........As did the Romans, as did the Vikings (in parts), as did the Normans - but the point is that people in Britain are NOT Romans, nor are they Vikings, nor are they Normans - and nor are they Anglo-Saxons. I'm also pretty sure that, as with any such migration, the second or third generation of the Anglo- Saxons who settled in Britain were quite distinct from those that remained in their "old" country. So, I do claim that they were "absorbed" into the fabric of British society..... given that British society evolved to include them.

It is still evolving....
The Romans were kicked out in 410, the Norse aka'Vikings' were eventually displaced by the Normans, a mixed bag of French speaking adventurers, who eventually decided to stop being French during the Hundred Years War. The Anglo-Saxons are however still here, and that is the reason this website uses the English language, as opposed to once what was known as the British language, but is now more commonly known as Welsh.

The point being that one of the downsides of migration, is that given sufficient numbers, the migrants take over. As has happened numerous times in history; see the entire American continent for example. I'm not convinced that the original inhabitants of lands that have experienced this kind of phenomenon would necessarily regard this as a 'good thing'.
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Re: Migration - the positive view

Post by Pandora » Mon Dec 19, 2016 5:34 am

macliam wrote:.... I hate people who look into the past through today's glasses - ....
Writing history backwards as in the Whig History of England. Oddly enough, I'd regard your OP as an example of that. :)

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Re: Migration - the positive view

Post by macliam » Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:07 am

Pandora wrote:The Romans were kicked out in 410, the Norse aka'Vikings' were eventually displaced by the Normans, a mixed bag of French speaking adventurers, who eventually decided to stop being French during the Hundred Years War. The Anglo-Saxons are however still here, and that is the reason this website uses the English language, as opposed to once what was known as the British language, but is now more commonly known as Welsh.

The point being that one of the downsides of migration, is that given sufficient numbers, the migrants take over. As has happened numerous times in history; see the entire American continent for example. I'm not convinced that the original inhabitants of lands that have experienced this kind of phenomenon would necessarily regard this as a 'good thing'.
Pandora wrote:
macliam wrote:.... I hate people who look into the past through today's glasses - ....
Writing history backwards as in the Whig History of England. Oddly enough, I'd regard your OP as an example of that. :)
Ahh, scratch the surface....... :D
So, you think the Romans were "kicked out in 410", the Normans "decided to stop being French" and the English language derives from Ango-Saxon, do you? Really? You think that the influence of Rome ceased to exist when the army withdrew, that the Normans ever considered themselves "French", that the language you speak is anything like Ango-Saxon and nothing has evolved since then, eh? You have a strange view of history and the evolution of nations - rather like tracing the "Aryan" roots of German heritage.... :eh:

Are you suggesting that the impact of immigration today is anything like the colonization of America or Australia? Are you suggesting that it is sufficient to radically alter the "soul" of the British people? (Do you even consider yourself "British", given that it includes the Scots and Welsh?) Perhaps you should look closer at the failure of British plantation in my country to understand how a nation develops, but retains its soul. :mrgreen:

I think you are the one with a narrow perspective on events - so, perhaps rather than naming yourself after a mythical Greek woman, you would be better naming yourself Canute (or Cnut) as it might better illustrate your position (although you'd probably argue that he was a Dane.....) :roll:
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Re: Migration - the positive view

Post by blythburgh » Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:40 am

macliam wrote:
Pandora wrote:The Romans were kicked out in 410, the Norse aka'Vikings' were eventually displaced by the Normans, a mixed bag of French speaking adventurers, who eventually decided to stop being French during the Hundred Years War. The Anglo-Saxons are however still here, and that is the reason this website uses the English language, as opposed to once what was known as the British language, but is now more commonly known as Welsh.

The point being that one of the downsides of migration, is that given sufficient numbers, the migrants take over. As has happened numerous times in history; see the entire American continent for example. I'm not convinced that the original inhabitants of lands that have experienced this kind of phenomenon would necessarily regard this as a 'good thing'.
Pandora wrote:
macliam wrote:.... I hate people who look into the past through today's glasses - ....
Writing history backwards as in the Whig History of England. Oddly enough, I'd regard your OP as an example of that. :)
Ahh, scratch the surface....... :D
So, you think the Romans were "kicked out in 410", the Normans "decided to stop being French" and the English language derives from Ango-Saxon, do you? Really? You think that the influence of Rome ceased to exist when the army withdrew, that the Normans ever considered themselves "French", that the language you speak is anything like Ango-Saxon and nothing has evolved since then, eh? You have a strange view of history and the evolution of nations - rather like tracing the "Aryan" roots of German heritage.... :eh:

Are you suggesting that the impact of immigration today is anything like the colonization of America or Australia? Are you suggesting that it is sufficient to radically alter the "soul" of the British people? (Do you even consider yourself "British", given that it includes the Scots and Welsh?) Perhaps you should look closer at the failure of British plantation in my country to understand how a nation develops, but retains its soul. :mrgreen:

I think you are the one with a narrow perspective on events - so, perhaps rather than naming yourself after a mythical Greek woman, you would be better naming yourself Canute (or Cnut) as it might better illustrate your position (although you'd probably argue that he was a Dane.....) :roll:
You forgot the Cornish and those from the Isle of Man, the true Cornish not the incomers of course, they are as Celtic as the Welsh and Irish.
Keep smiling because the light at the end of someone's tunnel may be you, Ron Cheneler

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