How dare you, Jo

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blythburgh
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Re: How dare you, Jo

Post by blythburgh » Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:29 am

Not in my name, Jo
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Re: How dare you, Jo

Post by William Joseph1 » Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:04 am

blythburgh wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:29 am
Not in my name, Jo
Maybe not. but it is in the name of the majority at the conference.
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Re: How dare you, Jo

Post by AAAlphaThunder » Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:05 pm

Certainly an interesting pitch.
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Re: How dare you, Jo

Post by Chadwick » Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:36 am

blythburgh wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:11 am
Chadwick wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:11 pm
blythburgh wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:21 am
This is not democracy. If the conference backs this vote then that is democracy within the party. But it is not the democracy I can vote for. If this becomes official party policy then I definitely will not be voting LibDem at the next General Election or any other election until this stance is dropped.

I want a People's vote on the eventual deal or no deal that is on offer. I will never support a move that is so undemocratic.
It is democracy.

People vote for political parties based on what they say they will do in their manifesto.
If enough people back a party, that is a mandate for that party to do what it said it would do.

It's a more direct form of democracy than a referendum. There is a built-in expectation that the winning party will put its manifesto into action.
A referendum by contrast is just an opinion poll. It requires a further separate commitment from government to achieve anything approaching the status of a GE manifesto.
A manifesto is a series of things that they want to do if in Govt. People choose to vote for the party that has more of the stuff they really want their Govt. to do than the other parties. Or to try and stop a different party winning.

An election is not as fair as a referendum on things like Brexit because the majority of people will end up voting for a candidate that is not actually elected in their constituency. Even in those seats where over 50% vote for the winning candidate there will be people who did not vote for the winner.

So an GE cannot tell the Govt. of the day what the whole of the public want re Brexit.

And on the subject of a People's Vote I had done some surveys recently that have included a Brexit question that asks if I want to stop Brexit completely and stay in the EU. I could never countenance that happening. That is not democracy and I want nothing to do with it
So, if if the Lib Dems have a manifesto policy to revoke Article 50 (amongst other things), and people vote for them in sufficient numbers that the Lib Dems win a general election, will you accept that as sufficient support for the Lib Dems manifesto policy of revoking Article 50?

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Re: How dare you, Jo

Post by kevinchess1 » Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:02 am

Yes I would
If the Tories campaign on a ‘Leave even without a deal ‘ and win the election
Would you except it with good grace?
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Re: How dare you, Jo

Post by William Joseph1 » Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:56 am

kevinchess1 wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:02 am
Yes I would
If the Tories campaign on a ‘Leave even without a deal ‘ and win the election
Would you accept it with good grace?
Seem s to me that if a party campaigns on anything and they win. Then it obviates the need for a referendum. Why throw good money after bad? They would need to have an overwhelming majority to carry it out though. Personally I do not think the LD's are going to get there. But they will do well. The Con's are going to struggle to get a majority with competition from the Brexit Party if we have not left the EU by the time of the General Election. They will do better if we have left. Labour, I don't think have a chance of winning. Their policy is to wishy washy at the moment. It bothers me that we are heading for another hung government.
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Re: How dare you, Jo

Post by William Joseph1 » Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:07 am

William Joseph1 wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:56 am
kevinchess1 wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:02 am
Yes I would
If the Tories campaign on a ‘Leave even without a deal ‘ and win the election
Would you accept it with good grace?
Seem s to me that if a party campaigns on anything and they win. Then it obviates the need for a referendum. Why throw good money after bad? They would need to have an overwhelming majority to carry it out though. Personally I do not think the LD's are going to get there. But they will do well. The Con's are going to struggle to get a majority with competition from the Brexit Party if we have not left the EU by the time of the General Election. They will do better if we have left. Labour, I don't think have a chance of winning. Their policy is to wishy washy at the moment. It bothers me that we are heading for another hung government.
Whatever the outcome, Its not the end. Expect it to run and run.
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Re: How dare you, Jo

Post by pabenny » Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:36 am

And a hung parliament will make it even more unlikely that any withdrawal agreement - or for that matter, revocation of Article 50 - will be passed.
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Re: How dare you, Jo

Post by William Joseph1 » Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:16 am

pabenny wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:36 am
And a hung parliament will make it even more unlikely that any withdrawal agreement - or for that matter, revocation of Article 50 - will be passed.
Indeed, it works both ways.
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Re: How dare you, Jo

Post by blythburgh » Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:44 am

A general election is a very flawed way to say how Brexit should end. In many, if not most, seats a minority vote for the winner. And everyone who votes in that election will be voting on Brexit, the NHS, the ecomony, climate change and lots of other things that matter to them. Maybe some people will vote for a party that they think is the best one for things they feel strongly about but disagree with that party's stance on Brexit.

Only a People's vote can say how the people feel about what sort of Brexit outcome they want. And that is why I want to run the risk of a 2nd leave vote rather than have a Parliament taking that decision. It would have been far better if we not had the first referendum in the first place IMHO but we did and only a 2nd one based on everything we know can solve things.

If we do have a People's Vote and the majority is Leave then I will feel disappointed but will accept that the people have spoken and I must accept their decision.
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